Quando

Hey! no sweat and no problem neither am I. Dont worry Ive been wacked a few times for my style

owenowlsnest

Quando, I don't feel this discussion needs be heated It's unfortunate there are some breeders who simply breed for looks, either the elegant or Euro style. The excellent ones breed for character, temperament, and health first. If a dog has proper proportion, their stride and movement is correct. That's important to avoid health problems also.

When the Boxer came to the US, I'd guess there was also the misconception that it was a dog that could be vicious and threatening. The history of it's previous use in Germany I'm sure followed. I can see why a dog that looked less stocky (menacing?) would be more popular. Could that be a reason that body type was replaced by a more elegant looking dog?

I think there is room for both body types as long as good temperament and character remain most important, along with health.

I miss the elegant look our last Boxer had sometimes. I notice people are much more afraid to approach me when I'm walking Gus because he looks imposing. He's built for Schutzhund work, closer to the ground, shorter neck, and the gait is very different. I think about the athletic build of a baseball player versus a football player.

Ann WI
Gus, CGC, (8-1-0

greg

unfortunately i don't have any pic's, but you can search the web, i liked, CH High Tech's Johnny J of Boxerton, CH Turo's Cachet, CH Turo's Futurian of Cachet although he died in an unfortunate accident at a young age thats why he still looks a little lean or on the thin side in his pics , and some of the older boxers CH Millain's Fashion Hint, and the older Salgray's stuff and some of the Mephisto stuff, if you look at my pic of fawn, look at how far her fore chest sticks out and how deep her chest is, you hardly ever see this in females anymore, i think she has a good balance of substance to elegance, but all mothers say good things about their kids .

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Greg
Infinity Boxers

Quando

Hey guys don’t always be so sensitive I am not heating things up, but I do have an opinion, it’s only a discussion and only a debate. Ann, Boxers are not bred specifically for Schutzhund, there is no Schutzhund line. If a breeder is trying to encourage this then I would not buy there, because would not be a typical boxer. Of course you can do it. Statements like this can give the false impression.

Newcastle

To clarify, Judy mentions that there are some breeders who already feel the breed should be split; however she does not agree; the best dogs in any country will be similar to the best dogs in other countries.

Not exceptionally long IME; if NA Boxer coats are 3/4" long, UK would be 1".

I'm not sure it could; remember along with the length ratio, the standard also calls for the muzzle to be 2/3 the width of the skull. I'm not sure you can get a GSD head with both of those muzzle-to-skull ratios.

In fairness, that's the AKC standard; the others don't mention width of muzzle compared to skull, except that it's proportional. However, for over 100 years the Boxer standard has described the head without using the term "brachycephalic", and without mentioning specific proportion of muzzle width to skull (save the AKC, which wasn't added until 1989) - yet we still have a brachycephalic breed.

Theoretically your scenario could happen outside the US, if breeders only looked at the written standard in their country. Most breeders go further; the best breeders look at all the world standards, they look at the past standards and the illustrated standards and the dogs that were considered greats in the past and greats today, they develop a picture of the ideal Boxer based on a broad view, not one that is narrowly focused only on their own region or country.

I disagree. I've read several discussions and interviews with the best Continental (including German) breeders; because they are looking at a broad view, they are able to see the virtues in North American Boxers as well as the faults, just as they are able to see the faults in dogs in their own country along with the virtues. They may not prefer the whole package, but they are certainly skilled enough to see that there are some "nice" parts of the Boxers in any country. Granted, there are those who have a more narrow view and are unable to see any positives about NA Boxers; they are usually also those who are unable to see any negatives about Boxers in their own country.

Yes, but showing is an activity that many people enjoy with their dogs, and in this country it is usually an easily-accessible one; just as Schutzhund is an activity that many people in Germany enjoy with their dogs and can generally easily find ways to participate. Neither is the be-all, end-all of the breed, no matter how much some may seem to think it is.

I'm only surprised about the ears, since uncropped NA ears are generally far too large. (Because we want long, elegant crops, which calls for a longer ear leather.)

From the narrow NA point of view, of course, the Continental Boxer does not resemble a Boxer that much anymore, either. Heads too big and blocky, muzzles far too short, eyes too round and bulging (in the most extreme, these look like Boston Terrier heads); chests that are past the elbow; no elegance whatsoever; so unbalanced from front to rear that the dog is in danger of tipping forward if you put a quarter on its nose. However, these are the extremes, and again this is a narrow view. The best NA breeders find the correct dogs in whatever country, and see the good bone, the tight feet, the moderate angulation front and rear, the balance of substance and elegance, etc.

Too much elegance is the latest trend in North America, just as lack of elegance is the latest trend on the Continent. Again, these are generalizations. We are seeing the pendulum swing back, however, with bone and substance becoming more evident in the last few years.

Well, first of all, "showing" has been the primary activity for breeders since the 1940s, but the standard hasn't really changed significantly (save some formatting required by the AKC). As far as health goes, let's not forget that it is primarily the breeders and owners of "show dogs" who fund the research into Boxer health issues. Without show breeders, Dr. Meurs never would have started her studies on AS and ARVC; without show breeders, Boxers would still be one of the top breeds in the UK affected with AS or PNA; without show breeders, we wouldn't have a DNA test for DM - which has also proven relevant in the human field with ALS.

__________________
Jennifer Walker
Newcastle Boxers
Mind ~ Body ~ Spirit ~ Naturally
Detroit Boxer Examiner

I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.
~John Cage

Quando

Good comments Newcastle, appreciate your participation in the discussion . I would be interested in know which breeders in Europe you have been talking to? Where are they? Continental Europe or specifically in Germany, and which boxer club do to they belong to? I would very much enjoy the same discussion with them; did you recently speak to them?

I also fully agree with you that we can be thankful for shows and the impact these have had on health issues, but nevertheless it can go overboard and the other way again. As I mentioned it is only a concern.

I find it really interesting and exciting how the continents have their views on this, don’t you

2wildboxers

Newcastle, love your information! My first girl, Roxy, was beautifully built. We had so many people ask if we were going to breed her. She had way too many issues as a pup (her parents were Ch., and were health tested). For some reason she had immunity problems. Anyway, she was built beautifully and her conformation was perfect. Her muzzle was lovely and her head was perfect. I agree, we are all used to what we have and what we see most of. I see euros and I do not like how they have such low hips. Kind of like the German Shepherds. True GS did not have the low hips you see today. Our GS we had growing up was an import from Germany from champions and was absolutely beautiful. They did not have the low hip or the hip problems they do today. As for the muzzle, Buster's muzzle looks a bit long sometimes, but we have measured and it is actually in proportion to his head. It is 1/3 the total length, which is what it is supposed to be. My first girl had the shorter muzzle, and I will say she had a harder time in the summer. With the muzzle just a bit longer, I think they have an easier time breathing, at least that is what I have found in having three boxers with different lengths. I'm glad they are changing the trend of such daintiness and going back to the deeper chest and more musculature stature. That is what boxers were bred to look like, what they needed to do their job. Not saying the daintier ones are lovely, because they are. I just like a more powerful looking dog, one that looks like it could step in and do the work that it was intended to do. Just my own opinion though. How a boxer is built and how long it's muzzle is doesn't matter for those of us who have rescued or adopted, the personality of the breed is spectacular, funny, and one of a kind. That's why we all love um right!

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Mom to Buster, 2 yr old brindle and Olive, 1 yr. old reverse brindle
Sweet Roxy, waiting at the bridge, April 10, 2000-April 10, 2009

Barbs2Ks

Thanks Greg, I have that book

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“Friends are the family we choose for ourselves”
Edna Buchanan
Barb, Mom to Keegan (adopted 3/28/0 & Kiah (adopted 5/5/07)


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owenowlsnest

I should clarify Schutzhund line so it is not confusing. I'm referring to Boxers bred from generations of dogs who have achieved IPO3 and VPG3 titles. The breeders I know here typically place their pups in homes where owners are interested in competing along those lines. It might be tracking, advanced obedience, or protection work.

IPO and Schutzhundsport are intended to demonstrate the dog's mental stability, endurance, structural efficiencies, ability to scent, willingness to work, courage and trainability. How could they not be typical? I think these traits are shared by all Boxers

Ann WI

Quando

Ann,

I read your comment as a Schutzhund „line“that’s all, sorry I misunderstood. If you take a look at the Boxer males that are used for breeding, those in the Boxer Club (sorry to keep going on about Germany) they nearly all have VPG3 or VPG2, many dogs have those titles, even those that do not breed. Although it is also up to the dog to pass those tests, it is also up to the owner to have the time to do it, and a good trainer. With not typical I meant only to breed for this purpose. A boxer should have the instincts you have mentioned, I fully agree. It is the training that is needed to draw those out. We are on the same page.

Unfortunately almost nobody is interested in the mother, only the father. Yet it is the mother that will pass so much on in the first 12 weeks. Just because the father has been trained to pass VPG3 is does not necessarily mean that his drive will be passed on to the pups