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Old 09-30-2012, 09:48 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default True "out-crossing"?

In this month's (September 2012) issue of Dogs Today magazine there is an interesting "blog" or mini-article about out-crossing within a breed in order to promote or improve health issues or vitality, etc. It discusses specifically how to do this & how long it generally takes in order to register a litter as purebreds again after such a cross from a different purebred being utilized within a breeding program to achieve a particular result. I know this has been performed within the Bernese Mt Dog breed (crossed with Greater Swissies) to attempt to improve longevity & reduce cancer from occuring...

Are there any breeders in the Boxer breed who have already or would consider out-crossing with an American Bulldog to improve longevity/reduce cancer rates and/or bring the temperament back to the more true type of working dog that the breed was originally developed to be back when Stockman was breeding her stock for nearly exclusively police and military & Schutzhund work?

Please, (just anticipating) before any breeders get bent out of shape for any reason: please read the mag article and also be aware that this is periodically done carefully under controlled circumstances by other breeders for valid reasons. Thanks.
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Old 09-30-2012, 10:38 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Could you post a link to the article?

I definitely have some opinions on it, but would like to see what the article suggest first.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:07 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Could you post a link to the article?

I definitely have some opinions on it, but would like to see what the article suggest first.
Hi,

Gosh, I wish I knew how, but I actually purchased the magazine on the newstand - it's widely available in the USA; I live in Vermont myself - I know "Barnes & Noble" carries it for one. Wish I could assist, but if you do have a chance to read it - or even if you cannot, I'd be extremely interested in all you have to say.
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:08 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I have read about breeders doing this successfully in the past and have even stated previously that I honestly think somewhere in our dams bloodline a Great Dane was introduced as I see what appears to be Dane characteristics in our pup Button. His great grandfather was an extremely leggy boxer and I would size him almost the same as a female Dane. Though I haven't attempted to confirm it with DNA tests, and I doubt the breeders would admit to it, the only reason I could see to introduce a Dane into the boxer line would be to bring some length and height back into what might have been shorter, stocker boxers.

Gosh, now I'm going to have to go look in my library upstairs to find the book I read on this very subject. I'll repost later if I can find the book.

Overall, I think that there might be some merit to this but I'm wondering how much of the traits you'd be breeding for to improve your own bloodline would be retained when you began breeding back into the strictly boxer bloodline. I'm thinking it would take several breedings with both a sire and a dam with the same stronger / better genetic make-up to get the desired results and bring the bloodline back to its purest possible form. Then again, isn't the overall genetic make-up actually a different breed altogether if this is accomplished? Just something to ponder. It's actually a good topic in my opinion.
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:02 PM   #5 (permalink)
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This was done in the 90's by Dr. Cattanach to create a natural bob tailed boxer. He bred his female boxer to a male Pembroke Corgi.

You can read more about it here: GENETICS
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:01 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Hi,

Gosh, I wish I knew how, but I actually purchased the magazine on the newstand - it's widely available in the USA; I live in Vermont myself - I know "Barnes & Noble" carries it for one. Wish I could assist, but if you do have a chance to read it - or even if you cannot, I'd be extremely interested in all you have to say.
I'll try to find it. It looks like a good magazine. I'll have to wait until I'm on a laptop to fully reply.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:03 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tracilee014 View Post
I have read about breeders doing this successfully in the past and have even stated previously that I honestly think somewhere in our dams bloodline a Great Dane was introduced as I see what appears to be Dane characteristics in our pup Button. His great grandfather was an extremely leggy boxer and I would size him almost the same as a female Dane. Though I haven't attempted to confirm it with DNA tests, and I doubt the breeders would admit to it, the only reason I could see to introduce a Dane into the boxer line would be to bring some length and height back into what might have been shorter, stocker boxers. .
The worst part is that Boxers are supposed to be short and stocky. And that must've been one tall Boxer!
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:30 PM   #8 (permalink)
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The worst part is that Boxers are supposed to be short and stocky. And that must've been one tall Boxer!
Yes! I agree - Boxers are supposed to be stocky, muscular & not a leggy, large dog. However, it wouldn't necessarily surprise me as the Boxers bred in the US the last couple of decades are exceptionally different physically in many respects to Ms. Stockman's original line; one need only to look at photos of her dogs & current conformation winners here in the US to see the differences. At first glance at a show when I come upon the Boxer ring - I think for a split second sometimes I'm at either the greyhound(!) ring or it is a Great Dane puppy ring...sorry, but true.

Personally, I think some of the lines of breeders breeding a particular type of American Bulldog (I know there are at least two distinct "types" & crosses thereof) look more similar to the European or German Boxer than they do to the typical American Boxer today. I guess that's why I specifically mentioned introduction of American Bulldog DNA - according to the article, you should locate as similar a breed as possible and Amer. Bulldogs would bring back in the heavier bone, strong working/prey drive, but most importantly - they are typically NOT predisposed to cancers as are our Boxers with their lifespan listed as 12 to 14 yrs. compared to our 8 to 10. Certainly, increasing longevity is a priority for certain.

Are there any breeders out there game?
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I'm definitely not a breeder yet, but here's my opinion.

My main problem with breed outcrossing is that no matter how much you breed back in there will always be part of that breed. In this instance, American Bulldog. I also don't really consider Bobtails to be completely Boxers and I don't think they should have been allowed to show. Now, some will argue that the Boxer is a mix of breeds which it is of course, but we've been breeding straight Boxers for the past 100 or so years. It becomes a "pure bred" and a breed of its own. Of course then with the Bobtails they argued that maybe she would've bred in a bobtail. Ok, sure, but definitely not with a corgi. If anything I would think you would want to breed in a Boerbel (I believe they can come naturally bob tailed) or maybe even an Aussie for the herding ability, while maintaining size and structure.

I think the real thing that is doing in the Boxer breed is popular stud syndrome and inbreeding. Honestly, how many dogs can you think of that don't have Jet Breaker or Bang Away in their pedigree? A lot of people say Bang Away brought in a lot of health problems. I don't know completely about that. Not to mention even the foundation stock for the breed were being inbred to some degree. Along with how much linebreeding is going on and that only American show lines are being used mainly. Breeders just really started using UK and Euro dogs a few years ago from what I've seen. There's more gene pools out there to use that aren't being used. If they reach out and are able to use up all those gene pools and still can't fix the problem, then I'd say look at total outcrossing. I do know that the UK genepool is even smaller though since it's so divided, but you still have Germany, Italy, Holland, Spain, etc. to choose from.

I'd personally say to even look at BYB Boxers before doing total outcross. Of course dogs that come from good longetivity and can complete their own health testing well though. If you look at it so many dogs are eliminated from the gene pool because BYB dogs aren't used. While some of those dogs are inbred, there have to be some that are mainly outcrosses.

If I was to do an outcross with a Boxer I would want to breed back to one of its ancestors which are mainly extinct now. Just like some breeders of the Havana Silk Dogs (I believe that's the breed) have done.

The other problem I see with an outcross is the health of both breeds. I don't know what American Bullogs are prone to, but let's say eye problems are one of them. So you breed to a A. Bull. So maybe in the end we could get rid of heart problems, but end up with eye problems. Of course, I'd take eye problems over heart problems any day, but to me you just trade stuff around. There's no perfectly healthy breed, unless maybe a Beagle.

If that makes any sense there it is, I wish we had more discussions like this. There used to be a lot more I loved reading.
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:40 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Yes! I agree - Boxers are supposed to be stocky, muscular & not a leggy, large dog. However, it wouldn't necessarily surprise me as the Boxers bred in the US the last couple of decades are exceptionally different physically in many respects to Ms. Stockman's original line; one need only to look at photos of her dogs & current conformation winners here in the US to see the differences. At first glance at a show when I come upon the Boxer ring - I think for a split second sometimes I'm at either the greyhound(!) ring or it is a Great Dane puppy ring...sorry, but true.
I could see how your area is a bit more extreme. Mine is okish. I understand the greyhound with some toplines.

I really don't understand the whole extreme elegance thing. I understand the Boxer wasn't supposed to be "block on block" and have round bone, but now it's just lines coming to a point on some dogs. I don't see how any of the original dogs could've been under 65 pounds. But you hear of males only weighing 65-67 and females at 60. There just isn't enough substance for me.
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