Mom2Rocky

So I have a couple of questions....Please take them seriously.. I'm not trying to be funny about this. I want to know for future reference.

If the sire and dam are health tested and get the all clear does this guarentee that the pups will not develop health problems down the road such as heart, hips or thyroid? Probably not, so what is the % risk of developing health problems with health tested parents compared to non tested parents? Have breeding studies been performed that show a % difference in say BYB health and health tested parents? Can people still be BYBs even though the Sire & Dam have been tested and cleared? What if.. say.. a Dam has a heart condition and she has puppies, then that pup later in life passed ALL health tests for breeding. The new puppies will be at risk and you would have no idea of knowing right? Also just because the Sire and Dam are champion blood lined and health tested do you still have to be careful who you buy from? How do you know you are buying from a good breeder?

Rocky's parents were not health tested, so if he were to have problems then when would one expect to start seeing them?

Oh and just for the record... I did not know about health testing before I bought him. I did not do my research So yes I did support a BYB.. but I unknowingly did... so do not kill me!

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Rocky 11/07/09

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HannaBanana

No worries, we all did not know - and many of us supported one at one time or another - at one point I was going to wait for a pup from my sisters two dogs- thank gawd I didn't but the glory of a forum like this is that they have taught me things, in which we can turn around and teach others.

I am running out the door, but will reply to this as they are great questions and sure many people will have different answers, but a great start to what can be a good thread

Lailabelle

Oh my goodness...don't feel badly! There are lots of us who have unknowlingly supported a BYB...myself included. And, your Rocky is just as special as any other Boxer! Live and learn...thanks to HannaBanana, I've learned LOTS! And, you've raised some interesting questions...ones I have wondered about myself.

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Suzan and Laila

HannaBanana

Ideally it should start out in the show ring. Breeders take their best show prospects and put them into the ring to see how they compare against other bred dogs. As a breeder you *try* to only show and breed a dog that has more strong features that adhere to the standard and not. There is not such thing as a perfect boxers, but certain things are more noticeable than others.

Some dogs finish (obtain their Championship) quicker than others, but while one is showing their dog they should also be testing them. Holter, Echo, Thyroid, and Hips (some do and some dont do hips). Now DNA testing is done for DM and ARVC. Most of these tests are done when the dog is at two and older. Its not common to echo a pup at 1.5 years and then again at 2 years to ensure their flow rate is still low, and to detect levels of murmurs that can lead to sub-aortic stenosis. Holters can detect Cardiomopathy which is detect arrhythmias called VPCs, and many times done at 2 years and later in life to ensure the dog's heart is still sound.

Boxer Cardiomyopathy - Wendy Wallner, DVM

Many genetic health issues start to appear after two hence why testing them before two really does not mean that much. Its great to start early, but you still have to test after two to obtain a clean bill of health for breeding. Have some dogs developed genetic issues when they came from heath tested parents - sometimes, but when a breeder tests they are cutting a huge precentage off having issues on that pup by testing.

Heart Issues, DM as well as Cancer as a huge problem in our breed. When you select a breeder that health tests, they most likely do research of all dogs in a possible pairing pedigree. They will research each dog - how long they lived and what they passed of. They will gather any and all info on their health testing.

They will also select a dog that compliments theirs as the reason for the breeding should be to improve your lines. If heart or cancer shows up through a pedigree in a breeders research they most likely will move away from that dog. To me doing pedigree research is what can give you health history and can give you an example of what you may expect from your dog. There are some great dogs out there that have finished and out at stud, that have well known speculations of them having heart issues. However some breeders are more thrilled with the status of getting that Champion title with their kennel name on it, that to pay attention and produce and breed healthy boxers.

If you were a breeder, would you rather be known as a breeder that breeds to standard dogs that live long healthy lines - maybe a Ch here and there or one that puts anything flashy in the ring, has 45 titled dogs but hardly any of them live past 10?

As far as genetic studies, sure they are out there - the American Boxer CLub has tons of info and studies listed on their site -

Boxer Health Information Index

How to do Health Research

Now to the BYB. There are some that do health test but they dont show and their dogs are somewhat off standard, others worse. Sure, its the lesser of the two evils, but what are they doing for the boxer if the dogs that they are breeding are mastiff looking and have long noses? Breeding a boxer with poor confirmation even if they pass their health testing can lead to other problems in health with their structure. You can have a pretty head, but the dog does not walk on their head. Poor angulation can lead to ACL and CCL issues as well as arthritis. Stuff like that can all be eliminatied by breeding a boxer that does confirm somewhat to standard.

Also another gipe I have is if you want to breed and you heath test your dogs, many people breed their dogs together and or use a buddy dog -to me, this is BYB. You may have many of breeders sharing dogs, pumping out litters, lining their pockets. You have to look at the dog, see what he/she is lacking confirmation wise, which they dont. Then you find a mate that will compliment them and hopefully improve their weakness while keeping the good. Its freaking hard. Genetics (aside from color) is really hard. You also have to pair up health results to make sure you are breeding a good pair health wise too. If dogs flow rate is breedable but high, you want to make sure you breed him/her to a dog that has a low flow rate. Doubling up on a high rate could make the puppies at rish for a heart condition. Then you have the ones who dont health test, produce dogs that may look pretty, but could be a walking time bomb or an bottomless money bit to your wallet health wise. You pay them $1000 for this dog and they dont care if you breed with it, or anything. They got their money, may send you a xmass card but they are now focused on their next litter with your money -its an endless nasty cycle, or business as someone pointed out. Many rep breeder place health tested pet pups on non-breeding contracts for 800-1000 too, just need to do the research to find them.

They dont care about the age of their dogs because waiting another year until the pup is two means a year without income. They profit off these litters and some have them as full time jobs because they dont have to back out any testing costs which are costly. Then many of these dogs develop genetic health issues and carry temperment problems, their owners try to rehome them or better yet put them into rescue and to shelters. Call the breeder - hell no, they dont want them back, you bought the dog your problem. Plus many offer a one year health guarantee - knowing that many of the genetic problems never develops until afte two so that give them their coverage.

Then there are what I call the "Hobby Breeders". They may get a show quality boxer, go to one show, and or say, its not for them. They will test their dog, do the right thing. They will find a suitable mate that passed his/her testing and start a breeding program. All is fine, but the thing I dont like is "what is your breeding goal" and if you work SO hard for something, and if you get it - show it off. Many dont like the politics, which is fine, but hate when they call themselves show breeders. I dont like the fact they dont show, however, as long as they are testing, screening home and placing pups on a non-breeding contract, then its the lesser of the evil. Everyone should be entitled to healthy pet pups.

All in all there are many types of breeders out there. Some do the best for the breed, some destroy it. Here are some tools to help people interview breeders as well as help them depict a breeders's website -

Questions to Ask Breeders - Newcastle Boxers

Interpreting Website Claims - A Newcastle Boxers Essay

Quando

I like that bag, is that really you under it? It reminds me of my kids, they do the same when I have to drive them somewhere.

I’m happy that you posted this; I don’t have to sugar coat my words. So Grrrrrrrrr….I do not really, fully or only partially agree with what you are saying.

Why do you start with showing and then go on to health? If showing is the priority then I do not see how anyone can understand that health and health testing a priority. If you advise a boxer beginner to go to a show to see show dogs then that is all they are going to see. Without wanting to offend anyone, I am pretty much sure that many beginners (as we have seen on many forums) just go to a BYB to buy (for all sorts of reasons) without putting any thought into it. I am sure that the majority of boxer beginners have no idea what Boxer standards are. I also believe that many who have boxers do not know what standards are, so why would a show help beginners to understand health issues, if they don’t know what standards are. I think that is asking too much and will not help anyone understand the importance of health.

Health really becomes important when the boxer is worked; this does not have to be VPG or what you call Schutzhund but also “only” when it runs with the family.

I feel that it would be more helpful to see what dog sports is all about to better understand why health testing and good health is important.

To watch a dog around a ring for a few minutes, to show strong features does not, in my opinion, help educate towards health.

HannaBanana

I got so sidetracked while writing it - thoughts and points go running thru my head, some out my fingers in a different order.

Many time when people who have intentions of starting a breeding program, they purchase a show prospect. They research a breeder, find out their morals and ethics and then find out if they agree or disagree. (at least thats how I do it). When you are new you need a mentor. Dont fall in love with the dog, fall in love with the person who bred it, what they stand for and how you and them are going to meet and exceed the goals you set forth.

When you show you gain so much knowledge by being around other breeders, the ring and the boxer community. You learn things that are not stated in a book, nor on the internet. You learn things in health whether testing, structure, and temperment by being right in front of it.

If you advise someone to go to a show and see dogs yes they will only see dogs. However, they will see dogs that adhere to standard and one may be shocked to think "Wow, thats what a boxer should look like?" My husband went to Nationals three years ago. He thought a boxer was a dog with short hair, flashy/plain brindle, fawn or white. He basically as well as myself as I was still learning, thought a boxer was classified as a boxer by its paint job. When you are in a place and you see over 1000 boxers, you start to notice things like their heads, their bodies, their size, and then you think...This is what one should look like.

From going to shows you get at least for me intrigued and start to meet people, start to talk dogs, and start to understand why these people do what they do. Further you get into it, the more you realize its not just a dog, and you admire and respect the time and effort that people put into this breed - - all from going to a dog show. They can go to a show just watch and leave or they can go to a show, learn, meet people and make it an experience. Its all up to them..........

Yes this is quite true, however the more and more shows I have been going to the more and more people I am meeting that are seeking out a well bred boxer, talking to breeders and meeting their dogs. Its kind of nice to see!!! The breeders in my area, some my mentors are really good at working with homes to find them what they are looking, whether they have a litter or another breeder.

You learn and ask questions. Health does not limit itself in my eyes to whats going on inside a dogs body, but also with structure. A proper gait is important to a dogs health as well as proper angulations. Hanny is a tad straight in the rear. From that she increases herself to endure injury in the ligiments of her rear - at almost 4 she tore her CCL. So over 3k in medical expenses have been paid out thus far. If I had paid more attention to not only health but structure and confirmation of my pup, looked for a pup with a better built rear, I may have avoided this injury - who knows?

Sure it does, just like working if a dog - movement is key!

If a dog lets say that may look a tad overdone (mostly seen in Europe) many of times their legs are too short, heavy in front. He looks strong and powerful but his hind legs will not have the power as a dog with a second thigh.

A dog with a shorter, strighter upper arm and shoulderblade with a strong rear is going to have issues in his front movement, he will lift his front feet and gait like a min-pin to compensate for his strong driving rear. This dog is going to have to work much more to cover the same ground as a dog that is put together well.

A dog that lacks front/rear angulation may fool people because he may gait nice, however due to the strightness he will lack reach and drive from the rear. This dog is going to have to take more steps to cover the same amount of ground as a dog that is well put together.

Any dogs that lack balance and or has an issue with is structure will be seen whether working or prancing in the ring. Again, it does effect health, IMO.

greg

Show dogs have to be in very good health just to be competitive, i know when i was showing my dogs a daily workout would consist of riding a bike for miles with them at my side just to keep them in shape, if a show dog had a health problem a trained eye would notice it right away in the ring, you never see a fat boxer competing at a dog show.

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Greg
Infinity Boxers

Lailabelle

But, that could just be indicative of overall general health. Laila is certainly trim and exercised daily, but who knows what her genetic health is like. From a genetic health standpoint, you couldn't tell by just looking at her...although, structurally I supposed you could. But, heart, thyroid, DM...who knows?

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Suzan and Laila