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Old 02-19-2018, 01:40 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Breeding to improve?

Why is the term breeding to improve used to justify a person or breeder to breed their dog. I completely understand the definition of improve as far as health screenings and conformation goes but ultimately they reach a goal which becomes their" line" and they continue to clone what they believe to be the perfect dog.Why is that ok ? I think people in the show world blow a lot of smoke because they only allow themselves to breed and call anybody a byb as if they breed their dog in a hotel room or something. With all the precautions and health screenings done the boxer will die from something so it's impossible to breed something that is immune to everything .how much does a show dog cost? Can you really say they are not making money selling a puppy for 6k? I understand that there are lots of dogs in shelters needing to be rescued yet this club of "approved" breeders continue to make dogs and call anybody else who considers breeding, names and totally discourages them from doing it. If I read every book in the world and came on here to ask if I should breed my dog.....nope is what I would get but it's ok for some people ? Why is it that way? Competition?

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Old 02-20-2018, 03:26 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Well I am not a "Breeder" but I'll take a stab at this.

Conformation is only one "aspect" of a given Breed. Does it look like a Boxer??? That one is simple enough I suppose but conformation is only one aspect, there is also "TEMPERAMENT." Skittishness, nervousness and fear of people??? Are "NOT" Boxer traits??? But those are "traits" that can be passed on.

And by and large no one looking for a Boxer is expecting or is prepared to deal with crap like that???" Breed characteristics is kinda the whole point of getting any PB dog. It gives one a guide line for what to expect. A puppy with a sound solid background and "TEMPERAMENT" won't exhibit that kinda crap??

I happened to see a BYB, breeders Great Dane puppy ... 5 month old. Yeah ... not a fan, nervous, skittish and fearful. Pretty much what I expected ... handsome dog I suppose but color me ... "not a fan!" Those people ought not to be "Breeding" those dogs???

And don't get me started on "Poorly Bred" GSD's ... that's a law suit waiting to happen! Lot's of them out there.

A dog being Breed Worthy, is about more than having the right look.
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Old 02-20-2018, 12:38 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I would say if your interested in breeding ..learn..go to a reputable breeder some will mentor you. Many many years ago I did this, different breed. I learned a lot. There is more to cute puppies and my dog has a super temperament.
This breeder had 1 stud that was super dominant..for she although he was a champion stopped breeding him as he passed this trait on...years later it occasionally popped out in a pup, making it more difficult to find the right owner. A lot of the breeding today is knowing genetics, what traits will be passed on. Also size say someone has the most adorable shih tzu or chihuahua..example they are super tiny and you ant to breed tinies..well you best know the past generations because if one was over sized its possible your puppies could be to or even just 1 and make the delivery need to be by c section. then their are eyes...some genetics hv found certain lines to be prone toward cherry eye or shape or size.. etc. Its more than my dog is gorgeous and has a super docile temperament but if you don't know the generations behind him or her you can never be sure what your getting. Boxers are also prone to heart disease, cancer... I very much enjoyed the breeding part but I must say it was a lot of work, my pups all left me with tails docked, dew claws removed, ears cropped, and an eye exam. Some breeders especially if you buy a u laity pup from them, use a recommended sire will work with you to learn. They don't want the whole market. Today in buying a dog I will no longer buy from someone who doesn't do any health testing or who doesn't now generations of their dogs. Too much heartbreak. ts no guarantee that you won't have heartbreak b ut the odds are in my favor. Good luck in searching and I hope you will find someone to work with you.
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Old 02-20-2018, 08:18 PM   #4 (permalink)
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What about all the moneys behind a show dogs lines? 5 to 9 thousand to get a CH is normal.. I have a stud that has 35 Champions going back 5 generations everybody is a Som Pom Lom. All recent health tested clear for heart, holter, flow rates. DM genentics.
I recently had a BYB offer a substantial sum for a standing. I refused I tried to let him know of the importance of Health testing, and to know your lines history and temperament, just trying to explain double dark haws was over his head. I guess money was his only motive.
I've been in Boxers for 35 years and only put 2 litters on the ground.
I'm all for newbies who want to learn "the right way".
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Old 02-20-2018, 09:36 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lindar51 View Post
I would say if your interested in breeding ..learn..go to a reputable breeder some will mentor you. Many many years ago I did this, different breed. I learned a lot. There is more to cute puppies and my dog has a super temperament.
This breeder had 1 stud that was super dominant..for she although he was a champion stopped breeding him as he passed this trait on...years later it occasionally popped out in a pup, making it more difficult to find the right owner. A lot of the breeding today is knowing genetics, what traits will be passed on. Also size say someone has the most adorable shih tzu or chihuahua..example they are super tiny and you ant to breed tinies..well you best know the past generations because if one was over sized its possible your puppies could be to or even just 1 and make the delivery need to be by c section. then their are eyes...some genetics hv found certain lines to be prone toward cherry eye or shape or size.. etc. Its more than my dog is gorgeous and has a super docile temperament but if you don't know the generations behind him or her you can never be sure what your getting. Boxers are also prone to heart disease, cancer... I very much enjoyed the breeding part but I must say it was a lot of work, my pups all left me with tails docked, dew claws removed, ears cropped, and an eye exam. Some breeders especially if you buy a u laity pup from them, use a recommended sire will work with you to learn. They don't want the whole market. Today in buying a dog I will no longer buy from someone who doesn't do any health testing or who doesn't now generations of their dogs. Too much heartbreak. ts no guarantee that you won't have heartbreak b ut the odds are in my favor. Good luck in searching and I hope you will find someone to work with you.
I question the phrase" breeding to improve" because how many litters does it take to weed out bad traits ? So essentially when somebody starts out they create litter 1, which may contain flaws being health ,temperament ,conformation etc then the second litter may contain less until generations pass being line breeding or whatever so more or less it's a garuntee a flawed dog will be created in this process. I totally agree in knowing what you're doing before attempting to do this, and I do realize the risks of breeding , my concern is when somebody asks the question about breeding their dog even just seeking information , most get eaten alive I'm guessing by the "professional breeder" trying to play God or scientist . Forum rules don't condone backyard breeders but will allow reference to a kennel if its not yours really? Anyway I have no interest in breeding and lol I'm not buying that just because you spent a lot of money on dog shows makes you a honest person , years ago I met a lady who was trained by the best in our area started from scratch was given a show dog had a boat load awards and champion titles, created her own line , she wanted to breed with my dog so I thought it be cool to breed my dog with this seasoned dog add some champion to my dogs line, she then made a comment that she wasnt sure about giving me any rights to litter which was confusing to me i wanted a ch line puppy ,breeding to improve she says so I'm like ok right on both were healthy etc then nothing the stud wouldn't try to mount so try next day and next day then we take a trip to vet...my girl is perfect and ready something is wrong with the ch stud...now the vet attempted to get a ai specemin can't do that either ...so I said ok that's it were done here few months down the road I get the vet bill lol and her dog is for sale for a few thousand as a breeding stud ! And she was also brokering other stud dogs she didn't own online( all the ads had her phone number) this is besides the point of how many litters a pro breeder has to have to get the perfect dog any why is that not a puppy mill or byb ☺

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Old 02-20-2018, 10:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeponds View Post
What about all the moneys behind a show dogs lines? 5 to 9 thousand to get a CH is normal.. I have a stud that has 35 Champions going back 5 generations everybody is a Som Pom Lom. All recent health tested clear for heart, holter, flow rates. DM genentics.
I recently had a BYB offer a substantial sum for a standing. I refused I tried to let him know of the importance of Health testing, and to know your lines history and temperament, just trying to explain double dark haws was over his head. I guess money was his only motive.
I've been in Boxers for 35 years and only put 2 litters on the ground.
I'm all for newbies who want to learn "the right way".
WOW 35 years and only two litters??? Sounds like there is a lot more to your story???

At any rate do you still have contact with any owners??? How did the pups turn out???
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Old 02-21-2018, 01:35 AM   #7 (permalink)
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"Improving the breed" means something different to each breeder.
While I'm not a breeder, to me improving the breed would mean bringing back the work ability.

Your example of multiple litters of flawed dogs.. I'm going to say your wrong on that part.
Assuming the breeders knows what the are doing they're going to start off with a dog that fits the standard, then breed to improve.. we're talking about small improvements to a already overall solid dog.
Now if you're starting with a poor dog to start with.. yes, you're going to throw a number of poor dogs (aka: backyard breeding).

Lastly, the people that come on here asking about breeding and the replies they get.
IMHO... if you're coming to the a internet message to get advice on breeding your dog... well there's a good chance you shouldn't be breeding.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:20 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I question the phrase" breeding to improve" because how many litters does it take to weed out bad traits ?
I don't think you understand what I tried to say. Its much more complicated your not just taking two dogs and breeding out bad traits the dogs must be solid to begin with. No dog is ver perfect or nearly no dog. They may not stand square enough, they ca't have a bad personality but you may want to see more of a laid back personality ( that just an example) you will research the other line that your breeding too..for that trait. And the breeders today are having to know their science and genetics. I'm sorry you had a bad experience. That breeder and I use the term loosely would not have approached you with presumably a dog that hasn't been proven in the conformation ring to breed her champion dog with. Just saying..There was a red flag there. You have to begin with two dogs that conform to the breed standard and health testing is more than the vet saying your dog is healthy. There are tests for hips, that get done at certain ages, heart monitors etc. things I have no knowledge of. Sorry I'm not better t explaining but again I'm no breeder I enjoyed working with the breeder but the w 30 years ago, things have changed too. Good luck.
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Old 02-21-2018, 10:29 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I would only imagine you would want to start breeding with 2 solid dogs obviously confirming to breed standard ,heart hips etc all the health and genetic information done before hand perfect tempermnt .by flaws I mean the trait your trying to improve and remember we have 2 already good dogs so what would that trait be? I agree if a boxer ends up with a snout like a lab? Something is very wrong and I don't like it or condone people breeding that way but if breeding to improve minimal traits why do it ? Wouldn't it be better to breed yo a lesser perfect dog hence the Larger improvement?

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Old 02-21-2018, 03:03 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Robbinsm46 View Post
I would only imagine you would want to start breeding with 2 solid dogs obviously confirming to breed standard ,heart hips etc all the health and genetic information done before hand perfect tempermnt .by flaws I mean the trait your trying to improve and remember we have 2 already good dogs so what would that trait be? I agree if a boxer ends up with a snout like a lab? Something is very wrong and I don't like it or condone people breeding that way but if breeding to improve minimal traits why do it ? Wouldn't it be better to breed yo a lesser perfect dog hence the Larger improvement?

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IMHO, you breed to improve the small things so the big things stay the same (within reason, there will always be things pop up, especially if the breeder is a heavy line breeding) ...
There are plenty of BYB AKC boxers out there as a example.. plenty that have some really long noses along with a host of other problems.
If no one was breeding to improve the breed, I think it's safe to say the "boxer" would look much different 10-20 year.

If you take a lesser dog just to make a "larger improvement"... well you've effectively been breeding to get back to a place you could have started from.

Are you a breeder or want to be a breeder? You mentioned someone wanted to breed with your male and you thought it would be good have CH's in his line. Whats the story? Your post is so specific it seems there's more to it then just a question.

Last edited by bte2; 02-21-2018 at 03:18 PM.
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