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Old 03-17-2009, 03:39 PM   #31 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Biggest Health hurdle for Boxer Breeders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newcastle
Quote:
I am in favor of taking the colour white out of the gene pool to begin with.
Why?
Because of the genes connection with deafness. But, I digress....
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Old 03-17-2009, 03:41 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: Biggest Health hurdle for Boxer Breeders?

In that case, you're best off not producing any Boxers at all. I'm quite sure that far more than 18% of Boxers will be affected with some health issue in their lifetime.
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Old 03-17-2009, 03:42 PM   #33 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Biggest Health hurdle for Boxer Breeders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HannaBanana
So again, I think you are new to the breeding/show world or starting to do research if I am not correct. I have many of breeder friends who have a tough time finding the right stud for their dog, so add in color preference, and its prob even harder.
I propose that with a more tolerance for classic markings in the ring, the difficulty with finding breeding matches will be greatly enhanced because more classicly marked dogs will have attained their championships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HannaBanana
I will be acquiring a show prospect withing a year or two, and while I like my plain Euros, I am going into it with an open mind to find the best dog possible - health, confirmation and temperment wise.
Right on. That's very exciting, and exactly the way it should be done.
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Old 03-17-2009, 03:43 PM   #34 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Biggest Health hurdle for Boxer Breeders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newcastle
In that case, you're best off not producing any Boxers at all. I'm quite sure that far more than 18% of Boxers will be affected with some health issue in their lifetime.
All the more reason to work toward eliminating those issues.....one issue at a time.
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Old 03-17-2009, 03:44 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Default Re: Biggest Health hurdle for Boxer Breeders?

Quote:
Before I continue, I would like to say that I can appreciate the emotions in this thread. We are all very attached to our pooches and it's easy to take offense in a thread like this where a particular type of dog is singled out. I know you all love your dogs -- I love mine, too. But, this discussion is not personal -- it is intended to discuss issues affecting boxers as whole, hence the reason I posted it in the Breeding Info section of the forum
The purpose of a forum is to share and learn. Not everyone is going to agree, however if you post something that is not of the norm, many of time you will get reactions to sentitive topics like white and croping/docking. Just be prepared to back up your opinions, and on the oposition - the same.
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Old 03-17-2009, 03:56 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Default Re: Biggest Health hurdle for Boxer Breeders?

Quote:
I propose that with a more tolerance for classic markings in the ring, the difficulty with finding breeding matches will be greatly enhanced because more classicly marked dogs will have attained their championships.
Only for those who insist on only breeding to Champion dogs. For those who are interested in correctness above show wins, it's a moot point.

Quote:
All the more reason to work toward eliminating those issues.....one issue at a time.
Doesn't it make more sense, though, to work first toward eliminating the issues which affect a dog's length and/or quality of life? While eliminating the small percentage of whites that will be deaf would be fairly easy, you're also eliminating about 60% of the possible breeding partners for a flashy Boxer based solely on markings. Once you go through the remaining 40% and rule some out due to health, temperament, and type, you've significantly and probably dangerously narrowed your gene pool, which of course only leads to more health problems in the long term.
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Old 03-17-2009, 04:30 PM   #37 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Biggest Health hurdle for Boxer Breeders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newcastle
Quote:
There is a reason for this....and the reason is health.
Actually I don't think that's true at all. White Boxers are no more or less healthy than their colored counterparts; deafness is a higher risk but deaf dogs of any color cannot compete in the conformation ring. Historically whites were culled because it was thought they carried the undesirable Bulldog traits; myths about their "ill health" cropped up over the decades, but these were never shown to be true. Today, of course, we know better, and whites are prohibited from showing and breeding simply because of tradition and long-ingrained bias. (And lest there be any confusion, I should clearly state here that until and unless the Code of Ethics changes, I do not support breeding white Boxers. )

[quote:2v9hp9og]it is so easy for breeders to eliminate the problem to begin with by eradicating this preference for flash.
Breeders who see it as a problem are already doing so, by including one plain parent in a breeding (this will fail a small percentage of the time, due to modifiers, but for the majority of cases it will avoid producing white puppies). I do not see it as a problem. Granted, if I knew the lines I was using produced a high incidence of deafness, I would take a different approach, but since they seem to produce a lower than average incidence, I see no reason to further narrow my options when I'm already eliminating so many because of health issues that actually have an affect on the dog.[/quote:2v9hp9og]

"Tradition and ingrained bias" That seems a silly reason not to put a white in the showring! Just my thoughts...Of course, I am still very new to the showring but this seems rather unfair...

I think if we can completely eliminate the deafness in whites, what other reason is there for a white not to be shown? It is an interesting question...I am curious at your view on this Jennifer. You have a perfectly sound boxer that is a perfect representation of the breed, but happens to be white. Do you think he/she should be in the ring?

I love these forums, I really enjoy a thought-provoking discussion. I think it can be quite a positive thing and a learning experience
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Old 03-17-2009, 04:42 PM   #38 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Biggest Health hurdle for Boxer Breeders?

I would love to discuss other health issues that boxers are prone to.

The ones that concern me the most are cardiomyopathy and 2 types of cancer, lymphoma and brain cancer.

DNA testing is going to contribute greatly to the rate of decline in health issues such as that.

MIT is currently asking for participants for their Dog Genome Sequencing Project which is working toward identifying genetic markers for cancer....in boxers, specifically lymphoma. So, if you would like to contribute DNA from your either healthy, or cancer stricken boxer, they would greatly appreciate it!

Here is a blurb about the project:
Quote:
Cancers: Cancer affects 30-50% of all dogs. A higher incidence in certain breeds suggests that genetic risk factors exist and can be identified. Many dog cancers are clinically similar to human cancers, including several that we are working on.
And on the research specific to lymphoma:
Quote:
A cancer of the lymphocytes that can occur in the lymph nodes, spleen, liver, and other organs. Characteristics are high white blood cell count, swollen lymph glands, lethargy, and loss of appetite. It is a treatable cancer, but if left untreated, it will eventually lead to death. A number of B- and T-cell subtypes exist.

Breeds needed for our study: Golden Retrievers, Cocker Spaniels, Rottweilers, and Boxers

Collaborator: Matthew Breen (North Carolina State University)

Funding: Pending
I think these types of programs are invaluable and will lead to a much healthier boxer; a much healthier canine species as a whole. I will contribute DNA from my dogs to these programs regularly until they don't need it anymore. (wishful thinking but....one can always hope)

As for current testing that can be done, of course the typical hips, heart, eyes, thyroid tests should be continued. Additionally, the OFA DNA Testing can help identify DM much easier which is great.

I look forward to the development of a wider array of DNA tests that the OFA can perform!

Something else I plan to utilize with my breeding program is the OFA Record Search. With this tool, as long as the dogs are reported to the OFA, you can find results for health tests on both linear and vertical pedigrees of dogs, which is EXTREMELY useful information. I would love to see more breeders using this resource. I can imagine a much healthier boxer [or any breed for that matter] because of it.

As an example, I chose a random lab I found online. If you punch in his registration number: SN73070402 , you will see his listing. Click on his name and you will get his linear pedigree. At the top of the page you will see a link to his vertical pedigree which shows, at least, his paternal lineage along with their hip test results. Great stuff.

It's a very interesting and exciting time for breeders right now with all the new tests and DNA testing that can be done. I think the advent of these resources will greatly enhance the boxer breed as a whole, but, admittedly, I expect it will take some time for breeders to begin utilizing all the resources at their fingertips. I do hope these things catch on quicker than I expect. Hey, a girl can hope.
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Old 03-17-2009, 04:54 PM   #39 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Biggest Health hurdle for Boxer Breeders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newcastle
Quote:
I propose that with a more tolerance for classic markings in the ring, the difficulty with finding breeding matches will be greatly enhanced because more classicly marked dogs will have attained their championships.
Only for those who insist on only breeding to Champion dogs. For those who are interested in correctness above show wins, it's a moot point.
I love the ideology behind this statement! If only this idea was embraced at a greater rate than it is....sigh.
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Old 03-17-2009, 04:59 PM   #40 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Biggest Health hurdle for Boxer Breeders?

Just FYI, the MIT Genome Project is also looking for DNA contributions for:

DM
Quote:
DM is a degenerative neurological disease where the dog’s immune system attacks both the myelin and axons of the nerves in the spinal cord (similar to multiple sclerosis in humans). The first signs are hind limb weakness and lack of coordination which can progress to a complete inability to walk.

Latest Research Upate: By comparing the DNA of 38 DM-affected Pembroke Welsh corgis to 17 healthy control dogs, we were able to find a gene that predisposes dogs to DM. Through further testing of dogs with and without DM we identified a mutation in the gene that was associated with inherited risk factors for DM in Pembroke Welsh corgis, boxers, Chesapeake Bay retrievers, German shepherd dogs, and Rhodesian ridgebacks. We believe that additional genetic risk factors contribute to DM in dogs and are therefore continuing our association studies with more samples. This research has been submitted forpublication.

Breeds needed for our study: Boxers, Corgis, Hovawarts, Nova Scotia duck tolling retrievers and Chesapeake Bay retrievers.

Main collaborator: Joan Coates (University of Missouri)
and also

DCM
Quote:
DCM is a disease of the heart muscle that can result in enlarged heart chambers, valve leakage and, in turn, weakened contractions and difficulty pumping blood out to the body and lungs. DCM is most commonly seen in large breed dogs, but it can be found in smaller breed dogs.

Breeds needed for our study: Boxers, Doberman Pinschers, and Newfoundlands

Collaborators: Kathryn Meurs (Washington State University), Åke Hedhammar (Swedish University of Agricultural Science)

*Note - sample collection at WSU and SUAS
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