Theresa

Yes, Ky I agree...I know it goes against the ABC's code of ethics but if its just based on bias and tradition, why can't whites be breed and shown? It would add variety to the showring and if only 18% of white boxers that are born are deaf, why does it matter? Do we not breed humans who are deaf? I know I might be going over the line because I understand the arguement about not replicating a condition (deafness) but if the majority of whites are not deaf, then what is the real reason they can't be breed or shown? This reveals another flaw in our show breeders, in my view...

I would have never raised this question without seeing all these posts first and watching the documentary, but it seems to raise more questions than answers. I understand that it was one-sided, but a lot of good points were brought up.

I really felt sorry for the Kennel club guy in the show b/c it did seem like he was ambushed...the AKC never goes on camera from what I have seen and this is most likely why...but if you are not prepared to answer tough questions and open to any agenda that the producers are pushing (yes, the Kennel club most likely would have never agreed to be interviewed if they knew the message the documentary was trying to push ahead of time, but I am glad they did). It revealed a lot of flaws in the show circuit and regardless of their bias, I am glad the information is out there.

And to everyone's credit, the show breeders are doing great things and it is too bad that the documentary did not depict that, but it is important to know the things that should be adjusted or fixed. I wish they would do a similiar program in the U.S. but show both sides. However, I am well aware that the AKC would never agree to go on camera. Just recently I got an e-mail from the American Kennel Club stating not to talk to reporters from Nightline if I am approached at a show.

I look forward to the Nightline report (if it makes the air) and will be interested in what they depict regarding the dog world. I have already tried to find it, but no luck...

Newcastle

The Nightline report has already aired; it was much the same as the UK program, but a much shorter segment. (I'm pretty sure it's been linked on the forum somewhere.) The AKC had originally intended to participate until they found out the report was going to be in the same vein as PDE.

__________________
Jennifer Walker
Newcastle Boxers
Mind ~ Body ~ Spirit ~ Naturally
Detroit Boxer Examiner
National Boxer Examiner

I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.
~John Cage

_tara_

Wow. That's awesome. She's a gorgeous gal...and very lucky, too.

I think this is a fair question. I would answer, though, that, given the chance, the breeders of other dogs who carry the piebald white would, if they could, breed out deafness. It's just not as easy for them as it would be for boxer breeders.

Ultimately, this has nothing to do with coat colour -- it has to do with the effect of less melanin on the inner ear of the dog.

The real question is, do you support breeders who's goal it is to diminish the instance of deafness boxers?

To reiterate, do you think it's better to have less deaf boxers if it's possible?

My answer is, yes, of course.

_tara_

And, just for the record, a response to my point that has been brought up here is, that deafness is not a 'horrible' disability and these dogs can live long, healthy lives. I agree. They can. But for me, that doesn't mean that it's best for them to be deaf. Clearly it would be better if they were hearing.

owenowlsnest

My parents owned two Boxers they got at the Mazelaine Kennels in Milwaukee. John P. Wagner was certainly a stickler on breeding, and that certainly was before "breeding for beauty" in the show ring was very popular here.

It's interesting that the temperament of the male was a problem. He was on the porch while my brother was in a buggie. A 4-year old neighbor approached and he attacked him, biting him in the skull. He developed hip problems later and I believe did die of cancer.
The female lived to be 11, but we lost her to lymphoma.

The point is that these genetic problems have been present for a very long time.

Ann WI

Newcastle

Sure it is, for many of them - Bull Terriers, for example. All they'd have to do is eliminate the white variety, and they'd be in the exact same boat as Boxers.

Well, yes, nothing to do with coat color, but I wouldn't say nothing to do with the ('full body') white marking pattern; both are side-effects of a double dose of the Sw gene.

If that's their only or primary goal, then honestly, no. I absolutely understand not wanting to increase the incidence of deafness, but there are far more important issues to consider right now; deafness rates have remained steady for decades, and IMO it's far more important to deal with conditions that have a profound negative effect on the dog at this point in time. As well, the breeders I've come across who spend excessive amounts of time and energy railing about "the deafness issue" are the ones that are seeking justification for euthanizing their white puppies - which is something I absolutely do not support.

Of course - I can't imagine you'll find anyone to disagree with that. But you have to either set priorities, or not breed at all. You cannot decrease every health issue or structural fault or temperament problem or other 'abnormality' in one generation. Dr. George Padgett, who wrote the book on controlling genetic diseases in dogs (literally!) recommends prioritizing genetic defects in this order:

* Disorders that cause pain to the animal (i.e. glaucoma, CMO, hip dysplasia, entropion, distichiasis, luxated patella, Legg-Perthes)
* Disorders that disfigure, maim or otherwise render an animal nonfunctional (i.e. cataracts, retinal dysplasia and detachment, chondrodystrophy).
* Disorders that require treatment for the life of the animal (i.e. Grey collie syndrome, diabetes, inherited hypothyroidism).
* Disorders that require surgical correction for the animal to survive (i.e. esophageal achalasia, anasarca, ventricular septal defects).
* Disorders that are difficult to control (i.e. multigene traits, abiotrophic traits).
* Disorders that require one time surgery that is highly successful and principally cosmetic (i.e. inguinal hernia, umbilical hernia, monorchidism).
* Disorders that prevent an animal's use for the purpose for which it is bred (i.e. albinism, correct color, mild bite/dentition or gait abnormalities).

http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0031.htm

__________________
Jennifer Walker
Newcastle Boxers
Mind ~ Body ~ Spirit ~ Naturally
Detroit Boxer Examiner
National Boxer Examiner

I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.
~John Cage

_tara_

Good list.

Hulk

Maybe ethics is something you could work on. Nobody whom had any moral principles would sign up on a forum where white boxers are so adored and post such crap. Your closed minded antics about deafness clearly shows you don't know what a deaf dog is capable of...I challenge your hearing dog to my deaf dog in obedience skills any day...Guess what she starts agility on monday...that is something the standard doesn't allow but guess what there are many collies that are deaf and still compete...its all hush hush...They even hold champion titles...

What bothers me is not your need for a healthy boxer but your lashing towards white boxers...If your child is deaf, should you alienate them from society? Are they considered less of a person because they can't hear? American history has many famous deaf people that literally left a legacy....That is what life is about learning...growing from situations....My deaf boxer will leave a legacy in my life, I want more deaf boxers....I want people to become educated on white boxers, deaf ones espcially and not all are white...

I feel sorry for you, it is so clear that your ignorance about deaf boxers scares you enough that you want to elimate them. I am curious what do you know about living with a deaf dog?? I am curious to your experience?? I can bet that is nothing and you are taking a definitive stance on something you hold NO EXPERIENCE on.....First rule in research 101...

What you need to start worrying about is breeding for tempermanent and worry more about the life altering health complications. Like hips, heart, cancer etc..

A deaf dog can change your life and if we as humans stop for a brief moment to learn how to communicate with them one will learn they are no different from their hearing counterparts...Being deaf doesn't make them unhealthy or sick, it just makes them deaf which in turn more in tune with you...which anyone whom ever trained a dog thrives for....

Now if you can't accept white deaf boxers, you are not welcome here and I am sure others will back that up.

__________________



Warning: The girl next to me is one tough cookie, she does all my licking work.

lori359

Ok I can see where many of the OP questions and thoughts on health are good, however, the apparent white boxer "bash" is uncalled for. Even if you (OP) did not intend to offend anyone it should be more than obvious to you by now that you offended several of our board members. You are welcome to your opinions just as much as the next person, but it seems to me that when people here started to give you their opinions you wanted to change the subject. I believe bottom line if God dodnt want us to have these special animals we wouldnt. The same way I believe if God didnt want certain people in this world to be deaf they wouldnt be. People with disabilities as well as animals with disabilities--they all have their own purposes in life. I for one would never (ok never say never lol) I do not see myself as owning a deaf boxer, not bc I have anything against them, more for the reason that they would require (and deserve) more than I think I can give, that being said I would own a healthy whitey in an instance. It is your choice not to have whiteys and what you do is on you, we all have to deal with our own demons one day...but just bc it is wrong for you does not mean it is wrong for everyone. And while we are all allowed to have our own opinions there is always that point in ones life when they should be smart enough to keep it to theirselves. i love all boxers, to me they are all perfect in their own special ways!

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Ky_IsisnOnyxsMama

just for Gp also..

i just came home from a ceremony... 100's of students and parents....

what was it for?

MY AUTISTIC 6 YEAR OLD SON WAS AWARDED STUDENT OF THE QUARTER.!!! he won over 84 " normal" 1st graders !

NOT b/c hes autistic...b/c he DESERVED IT !!

hes not the norm....he actually was not born autistic it was a medical onset from a prolonged life support @ 4 months old from the rsv virus...

since hes not the average kid....should he have not been born? when we found out at 2 yrs old that he was autistic should we have thrown him away ? b/c he didnt meet standard?

DIARI is polite, sincere, caring, curtious, highly intellegent and performs at a 3-4 th grade level @ most subjects... he doesnt LOOK any different..SOUND any different...he just THINKS differently and BECAUSE of my research and proactive attitude he performs high above most all his age ... but hell ALWAYS be autistic b/c there IS NO CURE

he is an avid surfer...& excellant @ it...surfed with PRO SURFERS at 5 different events in the last 3 yrs ! has worked at the humane society ....he was ASKED by the manager a year ago..b/c he was INCREDIBLE with animals... a bond that was unexplainable but purely incredible

so this child...who functions REMARKABLY over all at everything he does...IS DISABLED...should that mean they dont deserve the same as any other?

just a different perspective along the same lines....and before you whine its not the same...YES IT IS !!

there are ALOT of people that see their dogs as their children..treat them as such...our dogs are our other kids ..

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Ky, Mom to :
rescues-Onyx ( black lab) & Isis ( blue eyed, deaf white boxer) at the bridge(2010 & 2012)
Shaka Makuakai-Brindle Boxer
Makana Kalani-Golden Retriever
Dante's Big Kahuna aka Big Boss-Johnson American Bulldog