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Old 12-20-2018, 10:41 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by benthe bandit View Post
No I am not the trainer, I am the guy at the other end of the leash, actually my wife does most of the work with the dog – and therefore the bond between the dog and my wife is different to the bond between myself and the dog.

I don’t know any so called pro trainers, the trainers I have worked with are just your normal club trainers – guys who invest a huge amount of personal time training other peoples dogs, and for free. I do recognize a good trainer from a not so good trainer.

I have not been in clubs where prongs etc. are being used or have been used – but I have seen them used in other clubs, just not my thing. Even though boxers are so strong, muscular and agile they are so extremely sensitive – it wouldn’t take long to break one.

At the moment I don’t have any videos, but more than happy to start shooting some. Ben just turned 8 months so we have not gotten into any serious IPO per say – our focus is still sit, stay, heel and recall. Our club is on winter break and doesn’t re-open until mid January

No doubt, the bond between handler and dog needs to be great. That was never in question.

My personal opinion is purely positive training is great for learning things but it seldom (if every) corrects problems.
Once you get back to training, it would be great to see some video.
As you know IPO is a points sport, it's all about the positions. I would like to see how you are addressing these problems, along with protection exercises without corrections.
If it works great! I'd be happy to add it to way I train. I've just never seen it done with long term success

Side note.. about "Fear Free" sounded scary.
"Fear Free" is a new "catch phrase" some trainers are using.
Basically it's against anything that puts pressure/stress on the dog..equipment pressure, social pressure, spatial pressure, etc...
Example.. A vet practices "Fear Free" training. If a dog comes in to have it's nails trimmed and the dog start showing signs of stress, they would stop and the dog would be done. It could have been 1 nail, 1 paw, 3 paws.. once it shows stress they are done.

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Old 12-20-2018, 11:16 AM   #92 (permalink)
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No doubt, the bond between handler and dog needs to be great. That was never in question.

My personal opinion is purely positive training is great for learning things but it seldom (if every) corrects problems.
Once you get back to training, it would be great to see some video.
As you know IPO is a points sport, it's all about the positions. I would like to see how you are addressing these problems, along with protection exercises without corrections.
If it works great! I'd be happy to add it to way I train. I've just never seen it done with long term success

Side note.. about "Fear Free" sounded scary.
"Fear Free" is a new "catch phrase" some trainers are using.
Basically it's against anything that puts pressure/stress on the dog..equipment pressure, social pressure, spatial pressure, etc...
Example.. A vet practices "Fear Free" training. If a dog comes in to have it's nails trimmed and the dog start showing signs of stress, they would stop and the dog would be done. It could have been 1 nail, 1 paw, 3 paws.. once it shows stress they are done.
Sounds good - let's exchange ideas. I am Aware that some training is done with a prong etc. lots is still not. In one of my Posts ( quite some time back) I addressed the Need for a very good trainer / helper - his positioning is one of the key factors for the dog to take the Right Position and the trainer with the Long leash to do the fine Tuning.
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Old 12-20-2018, 01:28 PM   #93 (permalink)
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I admire chip very much for what he is doing, really a great deal of admiration and for the time he will require to get things sorted out, the Rescue dog world needs more chips.

I am probably going to get killed for saying what I am going to say, but here it is. As much as I sympathize the situation of a rescue dog, and people who adopt them - I would not take one – under a lot of consideration maybe a pup. I fear importing problems into my home that may (or may not) get out of control.

My focus is on supporting breeders on / with breeding healthy and sound dogs as pets, working dogs or whatever else is good for them.

We have huge problems over here with east Europeans “breeding” dogs of all races and selling them of at 50 bucks a pop to Germans who haven’t a clue what they are buying and letting themselves into. Car trunks are full of boxes with 6 week old pups being ferried into the country, sick and almost dying – it’s tragic
Nah, I think a lot of people feel this way. I'm one. I think it has to do with circumstances, financial, time, living situation, etc. My girlfriend does the rescue thing but for me its not in the cards, for reasons you stated and other reasons.

You are correct though, I respect the heck out of anyone who rescues dogs and there should be more of them.
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Old 12-20-2018, 03:49 PM   #94 (permalink)
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I feel badly that I have a hard time following your posts Chip.
Ah don't sweat it ... lot's of folks have trouble following me.

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I know you have lots of experience with dogs. It frustrates me. Have you raised a Boxer or GSD (pure- bred according to the AKC) from puppy hood?
LOL, uh yeah ...my Avatar "Struddell"! My hand picked,, hand raised, "Prima Donna!" puppy! White Boxer and an all American girl.

And much like my current new dog "Bella," pig headed and stubborn as crap! I've raised boys and I've raised girls. And I have found the "Boy's" are "eager to please "you." The girls however ... not so much??

The girls are (as I am now recalling) much more interested in "what they want to do." And you have to first convince them, that they should give a crap about what you "want to do???" And once you make that break thur ... the rest is easy! I'd forgotten about that!

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If your personal expertise is in older rescue dogs (GSD and Boxer mix), your input is still very useful because of your observation skills.
Bella is my fourth rescue and second Boxer mix.

There was also "Molly" herder dog, Queensland Heeler not really my thing but the neighbor was gonna take her to the pound! We'd been calling the cops on them about for a year because of the endless howling and barking pretty much 24/7 ... backyard (only) dog and "zero" training!

She was our first foster and much to my regret, sigh we did pass her along. It broke our hearts to do so ... But when I did decide to train her, I found she was brilliant and "eager to please!" Those are not "attributes" I'd ascribe to female Boxers ... mixed or not.

And Rocky my Working Line GSD, (foster fail) was the odd ball for me (a big furry dog with a pointy face) was the extent of my research?? High Rank Drive and People Issues, WTH?? I started as a "band Dawg" guy! Dog's of Molossler World:

Molossers breeds (Molosser dogs, Molossers, Mastiff breeds)

Combine them as you see fit, And you get an "American Band Dawg" ie my first, Band Dawg "Gunther" ... 50% APT/ 25% Lab and 25% Bullmastiff, that's what I wanted ... that's what I got! The Boxer thing was an accident??

And that was cause of Stewie, my first Boxer/Pit and a "male." And he was freaking brilliant!! But I lost him in an accident at one year old.

I tried to find another such mix but at the time I could not ... so I went with a Boxer?? And the primary difference I saw between Stewie ,Boxer/Pit and Struddell Boxer (aside from the male/female thing) was a higher "Goofy" content!

But what those dogs all had in common although I did not know it at the time ... was low Rank Drive and no Human Aggression?? Bella kinda threw me off my game??? Because she has no "serious issues??" LOL ... well as long as another owner did not have cats!

The Motorcycles/ATV's and other dogs, are observations from walking her. She is more of a "training" prospect then a behavioural project ... similar but different. I was kinda caught off guard???

But we are making progress.
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Old 12-20-2018, 03:55 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Here he is at 7-8 months
he's handsome.
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:01 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Side note.. about "Fear Free" sounded scary.
"Fear Free" is a new "catch phrase" some trainers are using.
Basically it's against anything that puts pressure/stress on the dog..equipment pressure, social pressure, spatial pressure, etc...
Example.. A vet practices "Fear Free" training. If a dog comes in to have its nails trimmed and the dog start showing signs of stress, they would stop and the dog would be done. It could have been 1 nail, 1 paw, 3 paws.. once it shows stress they are done.
LOL ... "Fear Free??" That sounds like something, Zak George or Victoria Stilwell, would come up with. I'll skip that one.
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Old 12-20-2018, 05:45 PM   #97 (permalink)
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And now back to Chips new dog. She is a mature pitt/boxer mix, that has been rehired 4 times and was never taught much of anything. He only recently took her into his home with cats present. He was told she is good with cats, it wasn't necessarily true but he has worked that out. She is reactive when walking on a leash to loud noises and will lunge and go after whatever it is.
Thanks for the vote of confidence! And yeah we will get it done!

The chasing and wanting to attack "loud" things was a bit of a surprise. The vacuum cleaner was not entirely unexpected?? But the Harley Davidson with the loud music blaring certainly was??? As is the degree of vigor which she display's going after "things that move fast and make loud noises???"

My still, not formally trained "Place Command" is going quite well! I issued a very loud "Place!!" With a tone that said "Don't even think about moving!!" And then broke out the Vacuum Cleaner!! I think she did "think about moving" but she "Chose" not to!

And even though ... I did not like how I trained "Down!" It has worked ... and she still does not like it! She will try and get away with not putting her elbows on the ground but I don't let her get away with that! And no more hands on in anycase!

I get better compliance indoors with "down," then I do outdoors and outdoors it only works with a leash on her! For the moment it's, no leash, no compliance.

And from Struddell I remembered ... "Hand Signals!" I said "Down" and used a "Downward Flat Hand." Then I tried without the word and "Down" she goes again! So we are making progress.

Still working on the recall and even though I am not doing the "Work for food" bit, ... I have been trying to make sure I reward her with "food" for "Recall's" (in the yard) Sit/Down and Place.

And while I certainly, don't have it dialed in like this. :

We are working on the "Heel Flip" and she is getting it!! And now I remember why I always trained recall last! Puppy's tend to follow you around anyway ... so I went with Down and Stay. Then worked on recall! I could stop my puppy's with a "Stay" and then a "Down!" And then I'd call them to me.

When we lived in the "Big City" they were on leash but we go to empty business parks on weekends and they were off leash. It was never a problem ... I'd call and they'd come a running! I can't do that with Bella at the moment
but we'll get there.










Chip I think this is what you have been saying. And she has n o recall skills at all, previous owners took no time to train her. So now Chip has this big dog to basically rehabilitate to make her part of his family. The good thing is he won't give up on her as previous owners did. So his posts are reflecting some of the chaos he is now going thru that he hasn't had to go thru in the past. Anyway that is my take, we are here to help one another by offering suggestions on what can be done to better our dogs and have them working for us. OK I sorry I just felt I needed to say that as Chip has offered lots of advise in the past to others struggling and now he has his. I have no doubt that in time she too will be what he wants her to be.[/QUOTE]
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Old 12-20-2018, 06:01 PM   #98 (permalink)
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And I wouldn't move too fast let her get a command and obey it well, then move to the next. Keep remembering she is still new. Some behaviors and commands are most important.
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Old 12-25-2018, 04:26 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Aww well, had a couple of set backs this week! Lesson one cats and treats! Don't leave, treats "Bones and such" out! I learned that with "Rocky!" But I forgot, Bella "was" allowing the Cat's to go in her Crate to see what was in her food dish, which is in her Crate and now she is not??

I should have known ... but I messed up! The heads up was a day or two ago. A treat I got her that she did not seem to particularly care for?? So it was left out, and FW (Fuzzy Wuzzy) went to check it out?? And Bella had a cow and went after him!!! A lot of noise and furry but she did not hurt him ... I scooped her her and threw her out of the house ... Ok then. And yet I missed up again this morning! Breakfast time, this time the food outside the Crate ... and Bella ate most of Breakfast but not all of it? And FW, went to check it out and "Bella" had a "Cow!!" And went after him!! Yet again she did not hurt him ... but it was bad!!

Ok then ... lesson learned my hand picked, hand raised, "Prima Donna" puppies ... would never have done that crap! But a rescue ... not so much?? I did see that with "Rocky" I got him at seven months so why I would "expect" Bella to be different, I have no idea? Cept you know last week she was in the Crate with a Cat and food ... which was foolish on my part ... anyway granted. But this week she seems to be not good with that crap???

So going forward "now" she eats in her Crate with the door closed! 15 minutes and if she does not eat everything ... the food gets put away!

I did not know that in the morning ... she would eat part of breakfast and walk away?? FW found her food and when "Bella" saw him eating it ... she had a "COW" my bad .... So going forward ... she will eat in her Crate with the door closed! 15 minutes and what she does not eat ... gets put away, lesson learned!

Hmm this just in ... apparently "Bella" is not down with "Kennel Up" at meal time?? Fine then ... no dinner for you! I'll try again, tomorrow! She will go in the Crate ... on command or she won't eat! As I understand ... three day's is about as long as a day will hold out without eating ... I'll let folks know. She went in the Crate Door closed on command this morning and ate!

And now the "Dog Park" and intelligent use thereof but first ... dog owners should be "Thankful" that there are dog owners like me ... that "Do not believe that a dog needs to interact, with other dogs to be civil!" I planned to go to the "Dog Park" this morning to work on "recall" training.

Christmas Eve, raining and cold ... I figured no one would be there ... I was wrong! There was one dog there. Ok then ... it was a GSD mix of some sort and not bigger than Bella??? I thought about actually going in ... but actually going in with an unknown dog (uh mine and that one) was out of my comfort zone.

So we walked outside the "Dog Park" and the GSD Mix, followed us and Bella was trying to pull to get to her. Not bad here but certainly not "doggy" neutral! OK then ... much like the (great with cat's) thing, she was claimed to be a "Dog Park" dog??


OK then ... well when I took her on a neighbor walk, and we passed dogs behind fences I saw a lot of reactivity?? My thoughts were ... this is a "Dog Park" dog???

So we come today and the "Dog Park." Well in Dayton ... holiday or not and cold and raining "some" owners are pretty hard core?? So there were people and dogs there.

And yeah it was uh, two people and two dogs and that was too, many for me! So instead of going "inside" we stay outside the park and walked the fence line. The Black GSD mix follows us as far as he can and Bella is doing a bit of pulling but not over the top.

I had actually thought about going in to the Park (the) because "Bella's" response to that particular dog ... seemed to be "reasonable??" But ... I don't know?? Soliciting my dogs with other dogs is not my thing, so we don't go in.

So we walk outside the the "Dog Park" when we come back ... now, it's raining hard but now the "Dog Park is empty! So we go in and I'm working recall by ... walking away from here if she is not paying attention to me and going into the next gated of section and just leaving her behind! It is working she does not care to be "Gated Off" from me and she comes when I call. If she does not, I close the gate and walk away.

It was going well and we are on our way out ... when crap goes "sideways!" The way out is a larger area and as we enter ... "Bella" sees a guy with a dog approaching!! She of course ... "blows off my recall!" And goes to "claim" the gate entry!

I shout to the guy ... "don't come in, I'll get her!!" So it's a standoff at the entryway! Fortunately the guy me ... but trust ... he was not gonna open that gate!! Now the first dog ... I thought about going in?? As "Bella" appeared to be OK?? But this dog male Mastiff/Pit mix was way bigger than Bella but it did not matter ...

There was "zero" chance of a friendly encounter!! She was over the freaking TOP!!!" She put on a display of aggression that matched "Shelly!" :


My first thought was to slip the SLL over head while she was at the fence! I tried once but it quickly became clear ... that had I tried that at that point I'd get the crap bit out of me!! Pure "Red Zone" as it were. So plan B grab her collar and pull her away then get the "SLL" on her ... that worked and I got her away and under control!

But at that point the guy was done ... uh yeah we'll use the other gate "Thank You!" You and your crazy ass dog can have this section! He did not say that but I'm sure that is what he was thinking??

So a bit of a surprise or rather "conformation" as I did see "something" on our neighborhood walks?? But hey now it's "confirmed!" Bella is most definitely "NOT" a "Dog Park" dog!! But "LOL" for me this "other dog" crap ... put's me back in my "wheelhouse!" It's pretty much "par" for the course with "some pit" mixes??

The Boxer part in her is pretty clear but the "Pit" part ... there are "Pit's" and there are "Game Bred" Pit's!! And those are the one's ... "you don't want to encounter!" Trust me on that! We had long raging "pit" discussions on GSDForum, about "pit's!" And of course I'm Pro Bully but someone would always say ... have you worked with a "Game Bred" Pit?? And I'd say no, well now ... it would seem I may have "such" a mix???

People are absolutely "Zero Issue" with her! But other dogs ... it would seem not so much?? Oh well ... no big deal with that crap. Been there done that ... the "recall" and off leash walking are my goals! And I gotta say E-Collar Training ... is starting to look like a better and better option, for that ???
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Last edited by chip18; 12-25-2018 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 10-07-2019, 08:49 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Well I've skipped a lot?? Bella is still kinda "Ass Hole-ish??" But today's Dog Park visit was interesting! As per my norm no one was there when I went in!

And as per my norm, since it was around 3:00 pm, I have eyes open for other people coming in! And I saw someone coming in with two dogs! And sigh I tried to recall Bella and get a leash on her and get out! But unlike other folks this guy just came in! But maybe this guy did see us us??

At any rate, Bella saw "a" dog and she blows off my "attempts at "recall/again/still!!! And she goes dashing around the Park to get in that dogs face!!!

She was of course moving at "Boxer" speed (which pretty much means,) I don't have time to see where am I going!?? And when she rounded the corner she saw not one but "Two Dogs!! And they were much bigger then her!! And when she saw not one but two dogs, she hit the brakes hard!! That was a surprise?? A Yellow Lab and a Blood Hound/Lab mix (both girls.) And the Bloodhound/Lab mix was huge!! I was like "HOLLY CRAPPP!!!"

But ... it was cool! Bella's demeanor changed quickly! And it turned out to be a great day!

The Bloodhound/Lab did not really care about other dogs?? He just wanted to uh "track stuff!" But the Yellow Lab, was up for play! She actually managed to roll Bella over a few times and Bella was good with that! The Bloodhound/Lab ..did not care as he was just "tracking stuff!" So it was a "Good Day" for Bella and her new friends! And the Yellow Labs, Bloodhound/Lab buddy seem to have zero interest in playing and stuff!

So it does seem that Bella is not really "Dog Aggressive???" But you know ... a high speed charge ... is not the best way to meet other dogs, I feel??

I much preferred my GSD's demeanor with other dogs! Calm and collected!! And he paid attention to me first! But it did go well, "Anyway" so she is not a "Dog Attacking Monster" as I feared! So you know ... that's progress?
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