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Eurobox, I am sorry you feel that way, I am far more new to the forum than many others but through all of my perusals on here and discussions with many members, I have to say that Hannah and Jennifer completely sum up how I feel about this as well as the majority of the members on here. It is a bad situation for this person to be in, but it seems to me that everyone here has had a normal reaction judging from their posts.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
HannaBanana said:
Did your dog come from FULLY health tested parents?"
85% of all boxer forum nope, not at all. BYB, Mills and Pet Stores as well as rescue and shelters. However of all the people who I have met on forums and via the internet for the love of the boxers, have learned their lessons, know what to look for, and what questions to ask potential breeders. Its called learning.

If Sami told us her ethics, what she does, how she does it, then the people who called BYB will learn that its not fair to judge someone without knowing them. Website are horrible as some are not complete and accurate. Thats all. .

I fell victim to it before. I posted about a kennel that bred a white dog and produce a flashy fawn that was being show. I questioned if you could show it because it had a white parent as well as the ethics of the person who bred the dog. Little did I know they joined the forum and I got b-( . However it lead to an educational conversation, where i think they learned about the ethics of breeding whites, I learned NEVER mention a kennel name or website in a public forum if its questionable, and not to judge until you have heard the entire story.

Live and learn!!!
Good for you! I have noticed that you seem more level headed than some. The quote you answered on here was not directed at you, but I think you know that. And the part you said about people learning their lessons about BYB, I still see people buying pups from 'this person' or 'that person' (BYB). I am not saying that BYB are not bad, just don't be so mean!!! That poor woman is never going to come back on here, and never have a good feeling about this site.
 

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Welcome Sami.

I did not stalk you. It was a joke. I was just doing research on Holland boxers.

Did you do any research on Serena Young or Sadoren Boxers before you decided to trade pups?
 

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What I consider to be a back yard breeder is somewhat different than a puppy mill. BYB's love their pets, they are members of the family, they take excellent care of them...but...they seem to only consentrate on the 'pure blood line part' or the 'registered/papered part' or the fact that generations back there was a conformation champion of some sort in the lineage. There's more to breeding than that. Sami..I didn't look at your website..so I'm just gonna ask you these questions..which I feel is fair..you being a breeder in all...
1. How old are your boxers when you begin to breed them?
2. How many times do you breed your bitches?
3. What is it that you want to accomplish from breeding the pair you bred? What traits were you looking for?
4. What health tests were done? Holter...how many hours of tape was read? Thyroid...did you get your results from a vet or from OFA (vets always say thyroid is good until the dog has full blown out thyroid problems)...Hips...once again, did the vet read your hip xrays...or were they sent in. My vet read one of my hip xrays wrong...said the dog had perfect hips..no problems...OFA stated differently...the dog has mild hip dysplasia..And do you provide documentation of these results? If there's no health testing done...how long have you been breeding this particular line...how have the other dogs done health wise? Any hip problems..early deaths from heart problems...????
5. Was your dog evaluated in conformation shows?? or by a judge?? If not, what about the parents?
6. Explain the parents temperament...
7. Where do you keep the puppies?? What have you done to desensatize them to there surroundings and people?
These are questions to 'me' that define whether or not you're dealing with a BYB. I don't want no health guarantee....for heaven's sake...if there was a problem..I'd never give the dog back once it was a member of my family..I'd deal with it.

I applaud you for what you did for all of these dogs, taking them in..getting them vet care, sterilizing them, finding them good homes...Really I do...But there's so much more to breeding...I'm not judging you in any way, shape or form...these are just the questions I'd ask any breeder to determine what I'm dealing with. *Please note...I'm not perfect...I got all my dogs close by...from family breeders..who do none of these things...I paid $500 for each of my dogs...but I consider them BYB'rs.

And Welcome to the site!
 

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EURO WTF!!! Dude I've been scammed before with ads like this because I just about fell for the whole "adopt me because my parents can no longer take care of me" BS. So sue me for being a little more critical.

Plus, dude, you used my quote but never directed it to me.

"I would be happy if they deleted it..." - You should delete your OP.

If you have an issue with me then bring it to me in privte.
 

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Hello again !

First off .. this is not a joke !! You don't call someone from an add, ask question then use the information to slander them and dig up stuff for gossip & then say "Hey I was joking" come on have some class. If you want to research Holland Boxers then call me or come by, I will be happy to show you around. I have nothing to hide & I can provide quite a few references.
I do not have to explain myself to anyone but I will answer some question to help some of you.

I really appriciate that everyone is being a little nicer. I have never joined a forum before because all I ever heard from people was that there is nothing but judment & gossip about people on a forum. When I joined this one because I had heard thru the grapevine that I was being slammed, I seen all of these remarks from people that had no idea who I am or what I do.
I have 5 beautiful acres, a 5 y/o Scottish Highland cow, 2 horses ( a AQHA mare she's 18 & a 12 y/o Pinto mare), an 8 y/o Blue Heeler, 6 y/o Pug, a 3 y/o blind Pug (by the way this one was came with the house & was a breeding stud in with 5 females, blind from PRA !) he is now neutered & I had his Stenotic Nares and Soft palate fixed too so he could breath easier! He will live out his life here since it is the only place he knows. Our oldest Boxer is 9 & I have been breeding Boxers for just 5-6 years. Before that the Rottweiler was my breed .... for 12 years but I began to get tired of the "type" of people looking to get a Rott. I have always had a mix of critters in my house. I grew up on a farm & with all kinds of animals. My family bred rough coat Collies as far back as I can remember.
I came here from AZ in 1990 with my new husband (we had just married & he was getting out of the army), his family, formerly Gereans Boxers, had gorgeous Boxers & I learned a lot from them but I wasn't impressed with the small boned. long nosed Boxer that I was seeing (they were big show breeders too) and really didn't think much about getting into the breed until years later (& a divorce) I met Kim & her Euro Boxers from Belgium ... this is where I got really interested in the breed & started my research. This was a real Boxer in my opinon & I was hooked.

I have shown my Boxers in IABCA, as some already know the Euro's do not do well in AKC for the most part.
My dogs are health tested & I show proof to people that purchase my pups. I do not post on the website, it is a waste of space & those interested when they come to my home will be shown full proof. My Boxers are also tested for ARVC through blood DNA at WSU by Dr. Muers and/or her staff. Most breeders are not doing this. I want to be sure that I have no "homozygous" carriers & so far the test have revealed that I do not !
I use South Bay for most testing as far as Thyroid or lab testing I do not believe one must send everything to OFA !! I am able to keep my own records and I do not care about studding to the public ! I am a private persone for the most part & have only studded my males to bitches that I have bred or of similar bloodlines. The lines have proven healthy and long lived and just a small amount of research will prove that. I started off with a 1/4 Euro 3/4 American female from some of the old Boxella lines & paid $1800.00 (yes, $1800.00!) stud fee's to breed to top quality Euro lines & kept pups from my own breedings to start my own. I have bred to only top Euro lines of proven health & longevity. One of the studs you will see in just about everything I have is Angelo van de Boksdoorn (he was the $1800.00 stud fee) also bred to an 8 y/o import from the Wordanis kennel in the Netherlands, he had never been bred before. the owner had been aproached many times to use his Boxer for stud but had yet to see a bitch worthy, after temperament testing my Carmen, reasearching her lines, speaking to Erik Fick at the Wordanis kennel for his approval & checking her health testing she was bred to his male ... twice for 2 beautiful litters! Fausto, Fleur & Fallon are from the 1st breeding. These are old Wordanis bloodlines ... this male is a son of Urban Wordanis & he is still doing just fine today at 10. The male has never had one health issue, never had a surgery other then his ear crop & is working/Schutz. trained as well as a loyal family member.

My pups are raised in my home not in kennels, we have a huge fenced yard which they have the run of unless weather is bad in which case I have a 2 car garage that was converted into a huge room, the garage door is no longer there & it was framed in & windows installed, the room has pergo floors through out, it is plummed with heat ducts & is heated by our heat pump just as the rest of the house. There is a TV & a radio for THEM in there along with huge dog beds (water proof of course. They have doggie door access to a smaller yard with pea gravel to potty, this area is covered so they don't get wet.
I have never had a puppy returned for health or temperament issues & give a 3 year health guarantee & my contract states that the puppy/dog be returned if it cannot be kept for any reason at any age. They are also microchipped with ME as a 2nd contact. BYB do not do this ! I do it for the health & safety of pups/dogs produced by me.
Thank s again to all that are so open minded on this forum & shame on those that try to dig up dirt on people & use as gossip. Maybe your time would be more useful voluteering at a shelter or rescue ?
I will come back here to this forum ... I see that there are good people out there.

Sami
 

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Wow lot's of info and stuff I don't know what you are talking about, but that's because I am no breeder ;)
I just wanted to say

:hi: :hi: :hi: :hithere:
 

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sami said:
Hello again !

First off .. this is not a joke !! You don't call someone from an add, ask question then use the information to slander them and dig up stuff for gossip & then say "Hey I was joking" come on have some class. If you want to research Holland Boxers then call me or come by, I will be happy to show you around. I have nothing to hide & I can provide quite a few references.
I hope you are not referring to me. Because I did not call. All I did was google/research holland boxers. And not once did I say anything bad.
 

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I'm going to point out a few things on both sides, and inevitably piss some people off.

To the breeder being "slammed"
Please understand that this forum is full of people very passionate about this breed, and its well-being. We are people who have for the most part, done our research, and would ask a million questions about any breeder before we'd buy, or even consider. I am by no means justifying the immediate judgement passed by many readers, just trying to put it in perspective. Also understand your situation is NOT ideal, and it would have been entirely unrealistic that with no information provided anyone would assume that you purchased a house with 33 dogs to explain the situation. I would hope that you know any breeder that sells that many breeds is a red flag for an educated person. They went with the information that was provided. Unfortunately that information was not adequate enough to asses this information.

To everyone else:
Lets keep in mind that websites alone are absolutely AWFUL to go off of alone. I saw a million and a half things that raised my eyebrow and made me wonder about Annie's breeder, and CALLED her to get the scoop. (red flag: breeds her own males to her own females. The scoop: many of her dogs are PURCHASED as adults because they are the perfect match for an opposite sex already there. Also, her lines come from all over the country.) Had I not have called her, I would have assumed she wasn't doing things right, and missed out on the best little girl I can dream of. I have seen this very same breeder slammed on here, and disregarded based off of the website alone. (whatever, I'm glad. Annie was the avaliable female at the time and if they took her, I would not have gotten her.)
I love this forum, and have had absolutely zero problems with anyone whatsoever. Everyone has been very welcoming to me, and I hope I'm not ruining that. I see no reason for this breeder to have to come on here and post every single thing she does or doesn't do. She defended the statements made against her and left it at that. As a member of this forum, she should not "need" to go any more into it than that. She owes us nothing.

I hope to see more ethical breeders join this forum, I believe they are a wealth of knowledge we can all benefit from, especially myself considering being a part of that world sometime in the future.
 

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Sami,

I didn't call you. I don't even know where you live. Honestly, I have no reason to slam you, nor would it benefit me to do so. If I really wanted to prevent you from selling pups because I 'thought' you were a BYB I wouldn't post your ad in the forums. If no one has heard of you, then you never existed.

I just posted in response to the OP. I gave my POV on your ad. If you took offense to my post then it is because your ad sounds like one of the ads I responded to and I almost got scammed from it. I lost $100 in traveling to get a Boxer only to find that the owner wanted me to wire money for an 'emergency' before ever meeting up to see the dog. I waited at the terminal for 2 hours and the person never showed. Good thing is I never give money until I see the product. I never heard from the person again.

If you read my first post, not once did I say you were/are a BYB, nor did I accuse you of being one. I merely stated and questioned that perhaps this was an ad from a BYB. Don't take it personal - your ad just sounded way too good to be true. And yes I was joking in my first thread! But no I didn't slam you. I didn't even Google you or use any information gathered from others to try and prove you were/are a BYB.

Not once was I two-faced. I am me, only me, and I've stayed real the whole time.

I'm sorry that your ad was posted here to be ridiculed, critiqued, and slammed; I'm also sorry that feelings got hurt in the process. However, I am not sorry for what I wrote since this was in response to the OP.

If you think I have no class, then so be it. You are entitled to your own opinion.

But, I am happy that you came to these forums to defend yourself.
 

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boxerpaws said:
I'm going to point out a few things on both sides, and inevitably piss some people off.

To the breeder being "slammed"
Please understand that this forum is full of people very passionate about this breed, and its well-being. We are people who have for the most part, done our research, and would ask a million questions about any breeder before we'd buy, or even consider. I am by no means justifying the immediate judgement passed by many readers, just trying to put it in perspective. Also understand your situation is NOT ideal, and it would have been entirely unrealistic that with no information provided anyone would assume that you purchased a house with 33 dogs to explain the situation. I would hope that you know any breeder that sells that many breeds is a red flag for an educated person. They went with the information that was provided. Unfortunately that information was not adequate enough to asses this information.

To everyone else:
Lets keep in mind that websites alone are absolutely AWFUL to go off of alone. I saw a million and a half things that raised my eyebrow and made me wonder about Annie's breeder, and CALLED her to get the scoop. (red flag: breeds her own males to her own females. The scoop: many of her dogs are PURCHASED as adults because they are the perfect match for an opposite sex already there. Also, her lines come from all over the country.) Had I not have called her, I would have assumed she wasn't doing things right, and missed out on the best little girl I can dream of. I have seen this very same breeder slammed on here, and disregarded based off of the website alone. (whatever, I'm glad. Annie was the avaliable female at the time and if they took her, I would not have gotten her.)
I love this forum, and have had absolutely zero problems with anyone whatsoever. Everyone has been very welcoming to me, and I hope I'm not ruining that. I see no reason for this breeder to have to come on here and post every single thing she does or doesn't do. She defended the statements made against her and left it at that. As a member of this forum, she should not "need" to go any more into it than that. She owes us nothing.

I hope to see more ethical breeders join this forum, I believe they are a wealth of knowledge we can all benefit from, especially myself considering being a part of that world sometime in the future.
I agree.
When red flags are raised, question may/should be asked, but keeping in mind things aren't always as they seem, (and this goes both ways!! things can look impeccable and in reality...)

I am not good at putting my thought on "paper" so I have stayed out of this discussion, but I really agree with the above poster.

When it all comes down to it we love our dogs and want the best for them and their peers. This includes gently educating others in what the "best" is. Although it seems this breeder does not need educating.. In case this breeder was BYB, and if she was at all hardnosed this discussion would have made her go "screw them" and she would continue in her ways. Approached gently and appealing to her goodwill/conscience would have been more likely to make a difference, than possibly pissing her off, and more hardened in her ways.

To the breeder..thanks so much for clearing this up.

WELCOME
 

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Sorry for the long post but since people wanted info .... you got it.
Thank you for the warm welcome to the site.

Sami
 

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I think it may have already been said but... I think it is GOOD that people on this forum are cautious, inquisitive and skeptical when they encounter any breeder/website/ad for puppies, especially one that doesn't post all their health info on their website or when things sound odd! I think it is pretty obvious that nobody in this thread meant to slander or be gossipy. Asking questions and posting doubts means people care a lot about the breed standard and the welfare of the dogs. And it is up to the breeder to prove to people that he or she is indeed pursuing the best for the breed!

(Sidenote... Sami, welcome to the forum!! I don't know about other people, but if I were a prospective buyer, I think it would be GREAT if you posted a list of all the specific health tests you do, on your website! I don't think it is a waste of space at all. Rather, it would show people you care and instil more trust when they first go to your site.)
 

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I am a true lover of all dogs but the Euro type Boxer (a quality bred one) is an awesome site. This is what I wanted to have but I didn't know anything about importing a dog & don't trust people that much to just send my money to a total stranger & the amount that they charge plus shipping ... WOW ! That was then .... now I know a few people & would trust them in a heart beat to send me a gorgeous, healthy Boxer.
Yes, I started with a not so beautiful bitch from old Boxella lines with a tad (about 1/4 or so) Euro (Boxella's Warwick) from a local, very experienced, reputable breeder, at the time she had 6 generations of the bloodlines still alive & no health issues ! I had found my mentor ... WHO HOO ! Through working with this woman I learned tons & continue to do so. My mind is always open to learn & I soaked it up like a sponge. She now has a few dogs bred by me .... full circle !
My goal was to have the most beautiful Boxers that would turn heads on the street & in the show and be known for their health & longevity. Later I learned that Euro's are not so welcomed in AKC & that is fine. An AKC Champion title does not mean healthy by an means & I know of many that died at very young ages (even after great testing results) and yes, unfortunatly most had already sired several litters. I goal was not breed just for AKC shows anyway, if some make it ... great if they don't I am fine with that too.
My idea of a Boxer is one that has the looks, bone structure and conformation of a true working dog. My dream was to have a Urban Wordanis of my own & if you look at my site I have an Urban grandson (Fausto) that is almost a mirror image ! It took me a while but I got what I was looking for and he is bred by me.
The same goes for my Frenchie & English Bulldogs both breeds are fairly new to me but for many hours/days I researched them on the computer, read books, went to shows & talked to breeders. My female Maddie is Ch. sired by Admire - a - Bull High Roller (AKA Armonty) & I bred her to a Champion Sired male, I have kept 2 bitches, Pickles & Jessie which I do intend to show AKC. With the breeds that I love I have only chosen the best to start with & always tried to better what I had/have. My male Frenchie is from the Shark kennel (Hungarian) he is a gorgeous young male. Due to some heavy handling before I got him he is too timid in the show but he is a heck of an entertainer at home and such a Ham too.
I love my dogs ... all of them. The smushy faces are obviously my favorite!
I am a regular at breeders day, put on by Steamboat Island Hospital which is where most of my testing is done, eye's, thyroid, hips & elbows & microchipped if needed. Hearts are checked by Dr. Meurs cardiologist, she basically checks for murmurs on that day, no Holter or ekg's she sends us to portland for that, she is also the one that does the dna for ARVC, think I mentioned this before. I will begin testing for DM very soon too.
It would be hard for me to choose one of the three breeds ... I love them all, each for their sillyness, goofy & couch potato ways.
I used to groom at PetSmart but worried about my dogs all day so I quit & now I am home with them all day, everyday except for a few hours here & there ( I have a great husband !!) If I take a vacation or go hunting with the hubby I hire a house/pet sitter to stay here with them all. She is a great woman & without her ... well there would be no vacations!!
 

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Hi Sami!

I'm glad you joined the forum! I enjoy reading input from people who professionally show, work and breed boxers -- I often learn something new. Like any good forum, we have our discussions, disagreements, etc., but I believe that's what a forum is! I just wanted to welcome you to the forum and am so glad to hear you love boxers as much as we do!

Sidenote: I *do* think it's great information to add to your website about all the health testing you do with your pups as well as your philosophy on health... but that's just me. I think it's an important point that really sets certain kennels apart from others. As anyone who's ever fallen in love with a boxer knows, it's so important to find a healthy/long-living pup!

Anyway, welcome again!!! :hi: :hi: :hi:
 

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Wow, I have learned so much from this thread. Even though it was a teeny bit controversial, it definitely opened my eyes. Thank you to Heather, Montys_Mom, Linsey, Sami, Hennesy, and everyone that gave insight. I consider it a good day when I learn something here...which is every day.
 

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I'm glad you will soon be testing for DM! My last dog passed away from that.. she was a mutt from a shelter so of course she was never tested.. but its the saddest thing to see them have.
 

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There are now so many posting to this topic I can not remember anymore who made the comment but it was sort of „that most on this forum that take “Boxers, breeding, health etc. seriously”. Sorry, but I don’t agree. When comments ( some comments do have substance) are made about BYBs ( I would never buy from one) then my feeling is that many just jump onto the bandwagon to yell, this also applies to many other comments made, it is sort of an “in thing” to do, yet the same people do not really have much knowledge about Boxers and what is important. When people take their pups home at 5-6 weeks and wonder why they whine all night or take pups home and have no time to take care of them, and then wonder why the dog the starts tearing the house apart then this does raise my eyebrows.
 

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I'm sorry I don't mean to be a douche bag..but some things can't be helped...why in the world would you not release the health tests you do on your dogs??? That makes no sense...your business would do better if you did.....Then you bred a bitch after 2 years knowing full well you didn't have the paper work on her...why??? Hennessy had every right to comment on your add....for goodness sake...I would put the most important crap in my add!! We all just commented on your add...it was very generic!! That wasn't our fault but....yeah...don't make us feel like sh!t because you don't know how to advertize....
 
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