It's not, really. They're the same species. It's more like comparing American people to German people - some cosmetic differences, but we all have basically the same needs.I have also wondered at the usefulness of comparing domestic dogs to wild wolves. It's like comparing chalk and cheese.
There are certifications vets can get in nutrition after graduation. The point is that most vets receive little to no education on companion animal nutrition - some vet schools don't offer any nutrition courses at all, others offer one course (either elective or required) which covers *all* animal nutrition - livestock, poultry, companion animals, exotics - in one semester out of a four-year program. In the meantime, however, there are numerous seminars, reading materials, and free lunches put on by pet food manufacturers, all telling these vets how their food is the best thing for your pets, and they can start their practice off right with kickbacks from selling their products, and get free food for their own pets for life. (I am not making this up; I have looked through vet school course requirements, and I have talked with vets and vet students about the issue.)The one thing I will say is that I have noticed how many pro-BARF sites trot out the old "Your Vet is not a qualified nutritionist" line. Who is a qualified animal nutritionist, then? Who qualifies them???
Dogs are carnivores. The "omnivore" camp, for the most part, isn't so much saying that dogs are truly omnivores as they are saying that dogs can derive some nutritional benefit from omnivore foods (which, incidentally, is the same thing the 'gurus' in the carnivore camp say). I'm not sure why this has become such a divisive issue, especially when the experts actually all agree - canines should be fed a diet consisting primarily of raw bones and meat, some organ meat, and a small amount of fruit or vegetable matter.What confuses me the most about this is weather or not dogs are omnivores or carnivores. There are definately two camps on this one and each has a different set of guidelines for feeding raw based on which camp they are in.
That's not really a fair statement. Most pro-raw sites will acknowledge the risks of feeding a raw diet; they simply go on to explain the reasoning behind accepting the risk.Rawfed.com is obviously a pro-BARF site and as such is obviously going to disagree with anything ANYONE says that is pointing out cons of the BARF way.
Yes, these discussions typically do!Hi Newcastle, this could go on a long time
I don't think in most cases it's a matter of being "bought" or "immoral" - they simply are uneducated about pet nutrition, and put their trust in the people who make pet foods, whom they consider to be "experts" in the topic.They can't all be bought by the kibble companies - some people do choose to be vets because they love animals and have some morals!
It is, but I think it's also fair to let people see the flaws in the arguments (on both sides).i just thought it would be fair to let people see both sides before making a decision.
How many years, and how many people/dogs, will it take? This is similar to the "raw food is a fad diet" argument - which completely ignores the fact that before kibble came on the scene 100 years or so ago, dogs were eating table scraps, raw meat and bones ('trash heap food', in other words), and whatever 'critters' they could catch on their own.Oh well, in a few more years or so when enough people have tried and tested the barf method i might be able to be convinced!
Not true. In September 1993, wolves and dogs were recognized as the same species. Per the American Society of Mammalogists' Mammal Species of the World, adhering to the Code of the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature, Canis lupus is the official species of both dogs and wolves. If you have a 'dog', your dog's classification is Canis lupus familiaris, where familiaris is the subspecies of wolf.I'm sorry, dogs and wolves are patently not the same species and it is disingenuous to claim that they are. Domestic dogs are of the species Canis Familiaris while wolves are of the genus Canis Lupus.
I still disagree, as I feel many of the websites on either side are quite objective. (Not the Second Chance Ranch one, however.) I agree that basing any decision on a single website is a bad idea; however basing a decision in part on information obtained from numerous websites on all sides of the issue is perfectly appropriate.which is why it is pointless to base a decision on any website that is clearly on either side of the argument - they are simply too close to the situation to be objective about it.
I thought wetting food actually contributed to bloat with some kibble.i don't have to soak her kibble for 15 min to soften it so she doesn't get bloat.
With some, those preserved with citric acid.I thought wetting food actually contributed to bloat with some kibble.
But kibble can and does, at times, have these pathogens, too. Again, it is a valid concern, but not one from which you are free if you feed kibble.Personally I cannot get over feeding food to the dog that might have E.Coli or Salmonella (sp?) on food bits they have been eating;
It could conceivably happen - just as it could with kibble. And just as it could with the foods you feed your family. If you practice basic common-sense food safety techniques, the risk of infection from feeding your dog raw chicken is about the same as the risk of infection from feeding your family chicken which was raw before you cooked it. (Remember the most recent widespread E. coli problem? It was from spinach - and while this is something some people feed their dogs on a raw diet, it's far more often a human food, and frequently eaten raw.) With kids in the house, I would feed the dogs in their crates, be sure the kids know not to bother the dogs while they're eating (which is a basic dog-kid rule no matter what you feed), and pick up the bowls/wipe down the crate trays as soon as they're done. (The Clorox wipes are handy for this.) I typically don't let my dogs lick my face for about 1/2 an hour after they've eaten, though I fully admit this is a random thing based on nothing other than my personal 'ick' factor.where the dog could carry the infectious stuff around my house so the kids can get it.... I really haven't heard anything that can convince me that cannot happen. (I'm hugely neurotic about cross-contamination).
Now I'm no expert on this at all...and I am not feeding a raw diet, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this. I believe that most of the digestion, or break down (?) of the food, in dogs happens in the stomach, where as in humans we tend to chew food really well. A dog doesn't really chew, but the acids in their stomach tend to do all the work as far as breaking down food and bones. Thats why I think raw bones are akay, they are softer and more pliable than cooked bones which can splinter and pierce insides. This is kind of gross, but have you ever seen your dog throw up after eating? Whatever he just ate, will come out pretty much whole, like he didn't even chew. sorry for the visual..caillou\";p=\"6370 said:In the wild (if you follow the wolf/dog theory) wouldn't a wolf eat the prey then go back and regurgitate this for the young? Thus providing a pre-chewed mush? There is no way i'd ever risk giving a chicken carcass to a puppy. They just don't yet have the jaw strength or teeth to deal with it. Baby teeth are pointy but they're not much good and grinding. Aren't there another set of guidelines for barf feeding a pup? And i'd still advise anyone about to do it to chat it over with their vet whether he's a nutrition expert or not he can still speak from experiences he's had with others doing barf. Kibble might be a health risk long term but i prefer to take that risk rather than lose my dog tomorrow because of a pierced stomach or intestine.
Pre-digested, yes, starting when the pups are about three weeks old. By the time the pups are eight weeks old (or 10-12, as many raw feeding breeders don't let them go until this age), they are fully weaned and happily eating the same thing their parents eat, all on their own.In the wild (if you follow the wolf/dog theory) wouldn't a wolf eat the prey then go back and regurgitate this for the young? Thus providing a pre-chewed mush?
No; puppies in a litter, yes, but not puppies who are ready to go to new homes.Aren't there another set of guidelines for barf feeding a pup?
Talking with the vet isn't a bad idea, but ask about his personal education in nutrition, his personal experience with feeding a raw diet, and then be ready to take what he says with a grain of salt. If the vet is anti-raw, chances are his clients who are feeding a raw diet just don't discuss the issue with him - meaning while he may know of some 'bad' experiences, he probably doesn't know of the 'good' ones - the dogs he sees every year who are happy and healthy and fed a raw diet.And i'd still advise anyone about to do it to chat it over with their vet whether he's a nutrition expert or not he can still speak from experiences he's had with others doing barf.
And that is your option, but again, kibble is not free from the risk of perforation, nor of aspiration.Kibble might be a health risk long term but i prefer to take that risk rather than lose my dog tomorrow because of a pierced stomach or intestine.
Yes, that's right. Dogs do not have digestive enzymes in their saliva, they do not (as puppies or adults) have flat teeth for grinding foods. Dogs don't chew their food; they either swallow it whole (kibble, ground food, and smaller RMBs) or they rip/tear/crunch it into pieces that they can swallow whole (larger RMBs). Raw bones are soft and pliable - and if I haven't said it before, never, *ever* feed cooked bones!I believe that most of the digestion, or break down (?) of the food, in dogs happens in the stomach, where as in humans we tend to chew food really well. A dog doesn't really chew, but the acids in their stomach tend to do all the work as far as breaking down food and bones. Thats why I think raw bones are akay, they are softer and more pliable than cooked bones which can splinter and pierce insides.