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Discussion Starter #1
Has anyone ever heard of a black boxer? AKC argues that they do not exisist and call them reverse brindle, that the black stripes over take the brown there for appearing black. But if they say that there is to be some brindle on the body of the dog how would you explain a solid black boxer with white markings and no black what so ever. I own four black boxers my self and have bred and produced solid black pups that are just as good as fawn and brindle pups. I think that the black boxer is very beautiful, because of its rareity many people do not think they exist, But they do and I am here to educate the public about them. When they first started to develope the breed the white boxer and the black boxer where called genetic defects and if your dog gave birth to these colors you were to kill them. so that the breed standard could be kept. If you breed to flashy boxers together you will get some white pups. And there for breeding to very dark brindles together has developed black once more. Please View my webpage for pictures of my black babies.

They are just as precious to me as any fawn or brindle, So tell me what you think about them.
Debby Wolfe
 

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He is still considered reverse brindle. For even if on the outside he may look black DNA says otherwise! LOL

And personally i think it is a deception to call a white or black rare...as they are not , in fact whites are not rare, and blacks are NOT...they are reverse brindles. IMO again IMO...i have been researching and find that most of what i am reading supports that.


Please do ALOT of researching before saying anything is rare. And PLEASE do alot of research on breeding and on what you are producing before you breed for the "rare" black boxer.


Sarah
Vintage Boxers
 

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Discussion Starter #5
By saying that the blacks are rare I am meaning that they are not as common as brindle or fawn. There are even more white boxers than there are black. The correct term for the "black Boxer" is not reverse brindle it is correctly called reverse brindle seal. I have done alot of research on this matter. There is a book mabe you would like to educate yourself on it is called Friederun Stockmann my life with the BLACK BOXER. IT was origanally published in germany where the boxer first started being recognized.  In fact "...1925 was the exact year that they decided that the black colored boxers where not allowed. Most breeders quickly followed these regulations which quickly led to the extiction of the black boxer."
That is a quote out of that book. If you would like further information on it I would be happy to send you to another site that has nothing but black boxer information on it. This is my friends site that also breeds black boxers. AKA reverse brindle seal. In my own opion and many others they are rare and much harder to produce. We had a solid black female and bred her with a reverse brindle german bloodlined male. There pups were all just dark brindle and some where even fawn. We took that same male and bred him with a different female and they produced black offspring. Our blacks that are bred to another black have produced black and very dark revese brindle. So from my personal experice and studing. They are rare. Like I said before take two flashy dogs and they produce white. Two white boxers only produce white. But not always do the blacks only produce black. Most of the general uneducated public have never heard of black, they say I have seen them in brown or brindle or even white. This is also why boxer puppies say fawn with out chapion lines going to a pet home sell for 450 and a black pup with the same back ground sell for 1200.  There are just not as many and or more uncommon. But i would never say they are better. I own them in all colors I even own and rescued a white boxer male, and they are all just as special and unique. I havent updated my webpage in awhile and have been breeding for almost 10years, I decided to specialize in producing black so more people could have the pleasure in owning one. Because most people cant afford the black ones. Not to offend anyone here. But it took me awhile to even find my first and then I had to drive 15 hours north to pick it up. I appreciate your thoughts and concerns though. Please let me know if you would like to read any of the book I told you about. And for those that thought my babies were "black" and just as pretty as the other colors I really appreciate it. Debby
 

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Bottom line is that true black does not conform to our breed standard, as the standard states:

Color
The colors are fawn and brindle. Fawn shades vary from light tan to mahogany. The brindle ranges from sparse but clearly defined black stripes on a fawn background to such a heavy concentration of black striping that the essential fawn background color barely, although clearly, shows through (which may create the appearance of reverse brindling).
and

Disqualifications: Boxers that are any color other than fawn or brindle. Boxers with a total of white markings exceeding one-third of the entire coat.
True black is not an acceptable color, and it is a genetic impossibility in purebred boxers. If the coat color is truly black, then it means a dog from another breed (black lab, pit bull, dane, etc) was used somewhere down the line.

The only reason that reverse brindle is "rare" (as you call it) is because it is undesirable by most reputable breeders, as it comes far too close to violating our breed standard. Yes there are a few breeders who show who will take the chance of penalty to have something that is different, but the majority don't even want to take the chance of being excused from the ring at shows, as our standard states that the fawn must "clearly show through" (which is completely up to the evaluating judge's discretion).

Sorry, but advertising a reverse or "sealed" brindle as "black" wreaks of false advertising, IMO. If the dogs are reverse brindle ("sealed brindle", "dark brindle", or "black brindle") fine, however, calling them out and out black is just wrong, as they are not genetically "black" the same way "black labs" are.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I understand the breed standard and that black is unexeptable in the ring but white is unexeptible and a boxer with more than 1/3 white markings. We have emailed AKC and they do recognize black boxers but will only let you regester them as brindle which is what they are. They are brindle boxers where the brown has been ruled out in their genes. They are not mixed with any other dog and that is just a ubsurd thing to say as the black color in boxers did exsist in the early 1900's and they where not mixed with lab as the lab did not come to be until later. Our boxers are what they are and if they were mixed then they would not have allowed the grandmother of the one in the picture above to be a champion. His grandmother was a reverse brindle champion. Say what you wish but mabe do a bit of research on the colors. There is such thing, they are not mixed breeds. And just because akc dosent allow them in the ring dosent mean they are not purebred. Its  just not in their regulations and I understand this. Whites arent allowed either, everyone knows this. I breed my dogs to the breed standard most of them have strong lines out of germany. One of my males was even importated from germany. But i am not the inhumane kind of breeder to kill the dogs for not being the color everyone prefers. If they are white or black i'm not going to be like well the dog is no good. It is just what nature wanted it to be. And will just as happily sell it to a pet only home just as I do my show puppies. Thanks for your opinion though.The picture on the left is a picture of his grandmother. I also have her pedigree if you would like to see that. THanks again.[/img]
 

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Any breeder who uses color as a main consideration when planning litters is not doing things the correct, or ethical way.


This sums it up.. thanks BurningRiver:  "The only reason that reverse brindle is "rare" (as you call it) is because it is undesirable by most reputable breeders, as it comes far too close to violating our breed standard."

As far as Im concerned, black boxers are the new 'white boxers' unethical breeders produce and sell them to fit the needs of buyers demand. NOT to improve the breed, and not to fit the breed standard. No matter how 'good' you think one of your 'black boxers' is, it DOES NOT CONFORM to the breed STANDARD.  

VERY few breeders cull ANY puppies in a litter due to color. It used to be done, but most now place them in pet homes. (Same with overly flashy puppies, whites, and if I had one, a BLACK. ) But, honestly, I wouldnt breed for it.

We have a breeding this week with a co-owned reverse brindle... she is being bred to a fawn - if I wanted to profit, we darn sure would breed her to ANOTHER reverse brindle - but - we are breeding for standard, not for fashion.

And, Im sure Burning River, and Vintage will agree:

Breeding for color alone is unethical. Period.
 

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And, may I ask who the dog in your avatar is? Its somewhat misleading if you dont show yourself... checked out the site you posted, and honestly - being as nice as I possibly can, you have other things you SHOULD be working to improve rather than worrying about color.

Your dogs have some very common faults - some that you could likely improve with time...

And, may I note, I DO NOT have an 'elitist' point of view on breeding - ANYONE can breed a litter, but very FEW people have the dedication and desire to gain knowledge to BE a breeder.

You need to honestly evaluate your own dogs, know their faults, and do everything you can to make each generation better than the one before.
(And even in some litters, that have the BEST planning, it doesnt work out that way!)

But, I would recommend you HONESTLY evaluate your dogs, and decide which, if any have merit. There is nothing to be proud of in breeding mediocre dogs, who are bred based on color.  Breed CORRECT dogs who can compete against other dogs - I should say who are competitive against other dogs.

Again, not a personal attack, but you need to be looking at the dogs you own, and realize they have faults - some pretty severe.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Well then call me unethecal. I am not breeding whites, black have no health problems, or lets say they have the same as any brindle or fawn. I have bred a reverse brindle (not black) to a fawn and two pups out of that litter where black. My boxers have went to obediance school and where bred for temperment and conformation. They are just not the excetable color.  Sorry if i'm unethical, but thats your opinon, not mine one day it will be different. If people are buying these designer dogs what the call yorkiepoos and what not then I believe one day Akc will allow the solid black in the ring they first did in Munich and IMO they will bring it back. The popularity and beauity, I really think it is possible. There is no need to cut people down or call them unethical just because they breed a color you do not like. If one of my black were prone to deafness, blindness, joint problems or they were aggresive or ill tempered I would not breed it. My boxers all have health test done before breeding (thyroid ect.) So i am not doing this just because people will pay alot for black Im doing this to improve the reverse brindle color. Even if nobody else will breed reverse brindle I will, and I have be scrutinized at dog competitions before so what you say is nothing I have heard before. I do take alot of concederation before breeding and make sure I have homes for the pups before the breeding even takes place. But I will continue to do this just as if someone where to say you fawn boxer is not as good and shouldnt be breed or compete at a dog show. I will accept what you say, but Only started this forum so that people could see that black do exist and arent mixed breeds. Here is a link to my friends site with alot of historic black boxer and white boxer information. He even has a picture of the first boxer regestered with AKC. Mabe it will suprise some of you. Hope you enjoy!!! :D
Thanks
blackboxerluvr   AKA the unethical breeder
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i think that if you breed blacks then you are  not trying to get a  dog that is going to go in the ring which is NOT helping move closer to breed stan.
Sure "blacks" are pretty dogs  but they are not accepted in the ring for a reason
 

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You are not breeding for conformation.... I can tell this BY LOOKING at the dogs you are breeding from.  Some have serious faults - and in some cases, you are breeding a BETTER dog to a LESSER one - by choice.

Im VERY familiar with the history of black boxers, and, all that needs to be said is they RIGHT NOW are unacceptable. Period.

You are breeding for color. You are not breeding to improve the dogs you own.
 

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I think that you're misunderstanding what I'm saying here. . .

We have emailed AKC and they do recognize black boxers but will only let you regester them as brindle which is what they are.
There is NO black coat color (genetically speaking) in boxers, which, when it comes down to it is what really matters. Yes, there is a *brindle* gene in boxers, which is why I have less of a problem as boxers being advertised as "black brindles" (key word here being the word "brindle") but advertising "black boxers" is just wrong, as the color of true black is a genetic impossibility.

They are brindle boxers where the brown has been ruled out in their genes.
Aside from "brown" not being a recognized boxer coat color, (correct terminology is "fawn"), basic understanding of canine genetics tells us that this is impossible. It's just not that easy. Brindle is nothing more than a marking pattern. Yes, there will be variation within that marking pattern, but you will always see a few fawn hairs, patches, etc show through at least somewhere on the coat.

Besides, since our standard *clearly* states the the fawn MUST show through, anything other than that is a disqualification per our breed standard, period.

They are not mixed with any other dog and that is just a ubsurd thing to say as the black color in boxers did exsist in the early 1900's and they where not mixed with lab as the lab did not come to be until later.
You have your history wrong. At some point Frau Stockmann said that a black schnauzer (not a lab) got to a boxer bitch in season and black puppies resulted, but what we have to keep in mind here is that 1) even then those dogs were not purebred, and 2) they were eliminated and therefore became extinct along with the black coat color long ago.

Our boxers are what they are and if they were mixed then they would not have allowed the grandmother of the one in the picture above to be a champion.
Be careful of who's pics you're posting. If they're not yours, you may be in violation of numerous internet copyright infringement laws.

And to your point about their champion grandmother, so what? This isn't to say that the mix couldn't have occurred elsewhere in the line. The dog in your avitar is obviously brindle (and I wonder how Medley would feel about you posting one of her photos or one of her client's photos without her permission).

Say what you wish but mabe do a bit of research on the colors.
You might want to take a bit of your own advice? ;)

And just because akc dosent allow them in the ring dosent mean they are not purebred.
If they're not allowed in the ring, then you shouldn't be breeding for them. You should be breeding to better the breed, not to create more pets.

It is just what nature wanted it to be.
No, boxers are a man made breed. They always will be. If we wanted to let nature take it's hand, then we wouldn't be striving to maintain our "artificial" man made breeds, period.

And will just as happily sell it to a pet only home just as I do my show puppies.
Do you show your own dogs? If not, how do you feel qualified to sell their offspring as show prospects?

And, Im sure Burning River, and Vintage will agree:

Breeding for color alone is unethical. Period.
Yes, I do agree, thanks Paula!

Is this your website? I've been there a few times. Actually, I used to know one of your buyers. . . He asked me my opinion of his puppy before he ever even bought it and I told him that, honestly, because of his coat color (which was indeed black), he did not conform to the breed standard. (Actually, there were other Conformation issues there that I didn't disclose to him, as I was, at the time, trying to be nice. Things like his dane facedness, *horrible* ear crop, lack of stop, low tailset, roached topline, straight rear, etc.)

He wanted to show him. You sold him a "show prospect" that is an outright disqualification per our breed standard. . .

How ethical is that?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
You really must have me confused with someone else. I have never sold a pup with his or her ears already cropped. So you must not have talked to one of my "buyers" my pups are all sold before they are born even my show prospects being flashy fawn and brindle. And again i never get their ears done before I send them to their new homes. They leave at eight weeks and is up to the "buyer" whether or not the do the ear cropping. Sorry you must not have know who I am.
 

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the webpage you quoted was someone I know's webpage with classic boxer info I thought you all would enjoy yes he has black, but the information is on vintage boxers and early pictures I thought you would all enjoy this. Not try to pick me apart like they are my dogs or my information.
 

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you have your choices but you can ask any REAL breeder and they would say that your not trying to help the  breed stan. your doing it for the color and good your pups all have homes and stuff but just think aobut what your doing everytime you breed  a "black" boxer to another
 

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I received an email that my website once again has become a topic of discussion regarding black boxers, I absolutely do not have a problem with that at all, but if someone is going to post I would appreciate if the information was correct.  Just to clarify a few issues from the above posts.   I've had this happen on other boxer forum as well and clarified it and all the posts were removed after they posted misinformation about somone that was totally false.. so here i go again.
* My website was designed for fun and joyment  and basic information for the average boxer owner/admirer of the boxer breed in plain english so the average person could understand it. NO where on my site do i advertise the sale of puppies.
 * I don't know any of you on here so I can safely say that I'm not on a friendly basis  nor am I friends with anyone that has posted here.  I am female not male as stated in the posts just for the record.
 *My dogs are indeed black brindles.  I have never had a solid black that lacked some sort of brindle on their coats.  I've made that perfectly clear on my site if you would care to read the information.
  *I breed very rarely..however black brindles are not rare.
 * Now regarding buring rivers post and information about being acquainted with someone who bought a dog from me is totally false.  Any puppy I've sold are sold as pets only.. and have a spaying/neutering contract that i enforce.  So your comment  that I supposedly made about selling to someone you "use to know"(how does that work?) as a show quality"/"show prospects"  and his or her desire to show is totally false.  Am I to assume that you visited my home as well  and made such a detailed negative evaluation on a 6 week old puppy and I just forgot?  hmmmm
  * Regarding your comments about my dogs and puppies which i take with a grain of salt because I don't believe anything in that post.   So please get your facts straight and not fabricate something just to make it sound good.  It isn't fair to your other members to get false information.
  Regarding Black Boxers... they don't exist.  The information that Cinema Boxer posted is correct.  There is not a solid black gene in AKC boxers.  Indeed if you have one.. someone, somewhere along the line, either on purpose or accidently added the gene to obtain that coat color.  AKC does have a special code for blacks... so if a breeder has a solid black boxer.. they are not brindle.. they are black and should be registered as such.  
   Last but not least, your personal attacks on other breeders dogs should be saved for over the phone or private emails.  I don't believe that any friendly forum was created with that purpose in mind and the average boxer owner/breeder/or admirer should be able to feel comfortable.
 

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Now regarding buring rivers post and information about being acquainted with someone who bought a dog from me is totally false. Any puppy I've sold are sold as pets only.. and have a spaying/neutering contract that i enforce.
Really? Well, maybe you can help me to understand why you're currently offering him for stud on your website.
 

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Again.. misinformation..... For being so uptight about the black brindles, you obviously enjoy visiting my site... could you help me understand that one??
 
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