[Hondo]

I have 1 question.I know the "black boxer" debate has been hashed in several forums.I not asking if they exist.I've read most the posts,and the history.I've been on several sites that claim to have them(some are close,some aren't close at all).I've went and read back threads on this site,and came across one I find interesting.It was called,"New breed Bobtail Boxers-they really exist"it was posted on Mar. 31 2008.For those who haven't read it,go look at it so you know what I'm refering to.Now to the question.Couldn't someone develope a "black boxer" with this same method/guidelines,or any color for that matter?Because IMO the bobtail boxer doesn't improve the breed,it is just for looks just as a "black boxer" would be.Now think about it before you get mad/offended and rant or educate me.I post this as an "honest would like to know your thoughts"question. Please look at this with the same open mind you used in the other thread I mentioned.
                                   
                                      Thank you.
                                            Shawn

 

[ReekosMom]

Im sure someone could! I suppose. Would need alot of thought tho AND a responcible person. Seriously they are on their what 10th generation of bobtail!! And he thought it out VERY WELL!!

 

[brown274]

You could make any breed of dogs you want to. Look at the olde English bulldogge, It was developed with the English bull, pit bull, mastiff, and American bulldog. In the 90's someone wanted an "american style" english bulldog that could naturally breed and not have the breathing problems that a english bulldog has.
Someone could develop a dog that was black and look somewhat like a boxer. But it would not be a purebred boxer because you would have to cross a purebred boxer with another breed that has the black gene. Then after years of breeding the offspring back to boxers only, you could have a dog that is black and has most of the boxers looks.
Then you could AKC reg them and say they are reverse brindle, and the AKC would send you papers! <---- but someone cheated

 

[southerngirls]

I can see both sides. After your research on the black boxer i am sure you are aware that black at one point was trying to be bred into the boxer gene pool, about 90 yrs or so ago according to Jennifer at that time for whatever reason, i am honestly not sure why, the black was disallowed and that particular line died off. I know the bob-tail has had many years of research and thought put into it to allow the countries that do have a cosmetic surgery ban a boxer with the same cropped tail that other countries that dont have a ban have. Could a person try attempt to reintro black into the gene pool?? Well heck anything is possible, i doubt we will see that anytime soon though. It does take years and years of research by very responsible breeders who truely are trying to preserve the breed to do so.

 

[Hondo]

You could make any breed of dogs you want to. Look at the olde English bulldogge, It was developed with the English bull, pit bull, mastiff, and American bulldog. In the 90's someone wanted an "american style" english bulldog that could naturally breed and not have the breathing problems that a english bulldog has.
Someone could develop a dog that was black and look somewhat like a boxer. But it would not be a purebred boxer because you would have to cross a purebred boxer with another breed that has the black gene. Then after years of breeding the offspring back to boxers only, you could have a dog that is black and has most of the boxers looks.
Then you could AKC reg them and say they are reverse brindle, and the AKC would send you papers! <---- but someone cheated

 Did you read the thread I was refering to?I wasn't Talking about a new breed,just a different color.If you read the thread you would have seen the methods/guidlines Newcastle talked about being used.And you would have read that they had the Kennel Clubs permission.They also had KC registration at 4th generation (Newcastle used KC,I'm not sure what it means,I'm guessing kennel club)  and possible AKC after 9th generation.I'm not quoting her,this is my take on what she said.So in those circumstances they would be considered pure Boxer.

 

[brown274]

This color thing kills me. I have yet to look at my dog and say, I wish he was a different color.

 

[Hondo]

This color thing kills me. I have yet to look at my dog and say, I wish he was a different color.

 Why the harshness?I just posted a question,remember I asked everyone to be open minded.Also,why the change of mind?
On Jan. 19 2008 You started a thread called"Black Boxer Survey".You stated "Everytime I see a pic. of a boxer that is black with no brindle showing at all,I always think they are awsome looking and would like to have one as a couch potato"And further in the thread you also said,"I think it would be nice for someone to throw the black gene in there while maintaining the boxers looks and personality."So I don't understand you not looking at my question with an open mind.I just wanted to get opinions without the whole "Black boxers don't exist arguement"I know they don't.But neither did "Bobtail Boxers"until someone started developing them 15 years ago.Please don't be offended,its not meant to be.

 

[Hondo]

I just want to say that I'm not for or against black boxers.I'm not arguing whether or not they exist.And I'm NOT planning on developing them(I'm not a breeder)I'm also not looking for an argument,but if I see inconsistancies in what people say and have said in the past I will point it out.I really like this forum,and have checked most of the past threads on here.I will continue to look at older threads.I think it helps me know how this site works,and how the people are.So far it's great!And if I'm not consistant please call me on it.

 

[maplesfolks]

My take on developing black boxers vs. bobtails is that bobtail was intended to create a boxer look that's already standard and widely excepted, just without the surgery.  In developing a black boxer one would be introducing something entirely new into the standard of the breed.  So in my opinion I don't believe that there is a need to do that since boxers are already beautiful in the colors they come in, and thus it would probably not be something that KC would back up.  hope this makes sense........

 

[Newcastle]

Couldn't someone develope a "black boxer" with this same method/guidelines,or any color for that matter?

Someone *could*, but no one *has*.  If someone were to approach the AKC (actually they'd probably have to go through the ABC) with a plan of action to bring the gene for black coat color into the Boxer  breed, a valid reason for doing so (preservation of the breed standard with lack of necessity for a surgical procedure is a valid reason, IMO), and very strict control over which dogs were used, how future generations were bred, etc., then it might possibly be accepted (you'd have to find a valid reason to bring in the black coat color, though, which would probably be pretty difficult).  

("KC" means the Kennel Club in the UK, where the bobtails originated. )

My take on developing black boxers vs. bobtails is that bobtail was intended to create a boxer look that's already standard and widely excepted, just without the surgery.  In developing a black boxer one would be introducing something entirely new into the standard of the breed.

Very very valid points.

 

[maplesfolks]

thank you Jennifer

 

[Hondo]

[quote:3twn4um1]Couldn't someone develope a "black boxer" with this same method/guidelines,or any color for that matter?

Someone *could*, but no one *has*.

 

[Donya]

yea but people in europe that can no longer dock tails may still like that standard in the boxer and now with the bobtail they have that option...i think if you asked the ABC to support the development of a black boxer because of guard work it would be rejected with the reasoning that sealed reverse brindles look black and can serve the same purpose without having to add something into the gene pool which could potentially change the boxer and do more damage than good. Im not saying it would go horribly wrong but it COULD and since they already have very dark brindles why mess with it. At least i think that would be the answer to that proposal

 

[Newcastle]

Donya's got it.  As well, police/guard work was not one of the functions for which the breed was created; it was a function at which the breed excelled and which allowed the breed to survive through the World Wars, especially WWI.  While visibility at night was a big reason whites were euthanized during the wars - when food was rationed, and none was provided for dogs who could not potentially be used by the armed forces - whites were never a preferred color and at the time that litters were kept at about six pups, after 'weaklings' and mismarks, white puppies were culled from larger litters.  In the original standard, whites were permissible but "not sought after" as a basic coat color.  This probably relates back to the fact that the white markings were brought into the breed by crossing to English Bulldogs; the early breeders then wanted to get rid the overly "Bulldoggy" traits, and it might well have been thought that eliminating the white coloring would help eliminate those undesirable traits.

 

[Hondo]

yea but people in europe that can no longer dock tails may still like that standard in the boxer and now with the bobtail they have that option...

But this still goes to the loook of the dog,just because the docking ban in Europe.I'm sure they changed the standard there to accept full tails(I really don't know the standard in Europe)So I really don't see how you can say they developed the "Bobtail Boxer" for any other reason than the people like docked tails.Which could be the other reason for a "Black Boxer"just because people like the look.

Believe it or not Fawn is my favorite color.This subject just interests me alot,the white boxer debate also interests me alot.So please don't take offence to anything I post,none is directed at anyone(most of the time,if I see a contradiction I will point it out)I will also take this time to say sorry for spelling,I suck at it.

 

[Newcastle]

Docked tails in the Boxer are appropriate for the historical function of the breed - hunting, baiting, and as butcher's and cattle dealer's dogs.  Tails (and ears) are exceptionally prone to injury in these situations and so were docked (and cropped) to prevent injury and long-term, painful healing which quite often results in the parts being removed anyway (but as a more serious and painful surgery past a few days (or months) of age).  The FCI standard changed to accommodate an undocked tail; neither the UK nor the Australian standards have.

As well, the bobtail Boxers were not bred to bring a new trait into the breed, but rather to preserve a trait that has been present for centuries (in fact, as early as 1719 there are writings of Boxer ancestors (Brabanter Bullenbeissers) with cropped ears and docked tails).

 

[Hondo]

As well, the bobtail Boxers were not bred to bring a new trait into the breed, but rather to preserve a trait that has been present for centuries (in fact, as early as 1719 there are writings of Boxer ancestors (Brabanter Bullenbeissers) with cropped ears and docked tails).

 

[Newcastle]

A short tail is a Boxer trait; there have been occasions of short-tailed Boxers born in Boxer litters, but they do not reproduce reliably.  The "bobtail gene" was not in Boxers, but the short tail trait itself has been for centuries.  

The function of the breed has changed, yes, but going by that argument there's no need for a square body, a foreshortened muzzle, an underbite, wrinkling on the head and face - in other words, all those things that make a Boxer a Boxer.  The entire point of purebred dogs is to preserve the breed standard, which describes the specimen of the breed which is ideally suited to the function for which it was bred; if you ignore that original function, then you might as well have mixed breed dogs.

 

[Hondo]

But my point in bringing up the bobtails is to show that they had to introduce another breed to get it.I'm just saying keep our minds open.Someday the black boxer may be accepted,noone really knows.If someone proposed to develope the bobtail 50 years ago before even the hint of a ban.What would have been said then,who knows?You can argue over and over,but  noone knows what the future may bring.
                             Thank you all for your answers.

 

[Newcastle]

Someday the black boxer may be accepted

Yes, well, as I said way back in the beginning of this thread *if* someone approached it in the same way as Dr. Cattanach did, and *if* there was a perceived valid reason to add the black color to the breed (rather than preserving a phenotypic, if not genetic, trait), then it might possibly happen.  I'm not ruling that out - but realistically, there's very little chance of it happening because a) there's not likely to be a valid reason to add a black coat color and b) the people who are breeding "black Boxers" now are going about it in entirely the wrong way for this scenario, and are frankly ruining the chances someone in the future might have.