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Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

Newcastle\";p=\"68344 said:
Well it may be true, and may be fact, but there really is no way to prove it as a fact.
And there's no way to prove that it is not fact.  100+ years of experience and observation from those who know the breed best is not worthless information, after all. :)  
It's fine if that's their defense, but that needs to be stated.  This is an informational website right?  It's not a "don't ask, don't tell" political campaign.  If you want people to heed the advice given, then the information given should not be cryptic or misleading.  If the only evidence for the argument of ear cropping is "100+ years of experience" by some anonymous group of dog owners, then that should be the evidence given.  Then the reader can decide for themselves if that's good enough evidence.  Just saying that ear cropping is the absolute way to go like it's common knowledge is irresponsible for a website that is supposed to further information about the breed.

It's apparent that you have personal involvement in this organization so I realize this comes off as an attack, but I assure you it's not.  I personally have no agenda for or against ear cropping, I'm just interested in learning about the best care for my dog.  I am sure others too and since theres no way to prove one way or the other at this given time, that should be stated (in my opinion).  But if you are not interested in hearing from readers about clarification, I guess  readers should seek additional information elsewhere.
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

Just saying that ear cropping is the absolute way to go like it's common knowledge is irresponsible for a website that is supposed to further information about the breed.
Nowhere does it say that. It simply says it is "appropriate". Suitable, not mandatory, not required, not the absolute way to go.  And, yet again, the information has actually been updated, just not in both spots - I'll repost the relevant sentence (emphasis mine):

[quote:ab7cuotl]Ear cropping is customary and appropriate but not required
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

[quote="Tiggy\";p=\"68278":1ufjgtjq]I've never done the ears, partly because I considered it unecessary and partly because I perfer the uncropped look...biggest issue has been a case of ear mites...we got the medicine, got it cleared up and then made sure his ears were dried after a swim or bath and he's been fine since.
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

it just seems like the ABC is very opinionated and the word appropriate makes it seem like it's not appropriate not to...
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

Doesn't the "not required" and "personal preference" make it clear that not cropping is an entirely acceptable option?
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

Newcastle\";p=\"68369 said:
Doesn't the "not required" and "personal preference" make it clear that not cropping is an entirely acceptable option?
I guess not!
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

But how else could you say it?
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

Newcastle\";p=\"68371 said:
But how else could you say it?
I dont know.  Maybe someone who has a problem with the way its worded can word it differently!
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

VMA's support the (sadly, all too novel) concept of medical decisions being made between owner and vet, based on the individual circumstance rather than an across-the-board recommendation.
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

yet I will disagree that it is sad or all to novel because there is no other way  that it should be done other then an owner and their vet making medical decisions based on individual circumstance.
Oh, I agree entirely.  What I meant was that the AVMA's position is sadly all too novel (especially among lawmakers!).
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

Newcastle\";p=\"68371 said:
But how else could you say it?
ABC version:

Ear cropping is appropriate for the well-being of the breed. This procedure is done under general anesthesia, usually between six and nine weeks of age. If the puppy is taken before cropping, the breeder usually makes arrangements. Breeder also advises regarding aftercare and taping if ears are not already standing. Sometimes this is a lengthy process. The erect, cropped ear reduces the potential for infections and hematomas that often beset long-eared breeds.

Clearer translation:


Ear cropping is a personal choice, primarily done for aesthetic reasons.  This procedure is done under general anesthesia, usually between six and nine weeks of age. If the puppy is taken before cropping, the breeder usually makes arrangements. Breeder also advises regarding aftercare and taping if ears are not already standing. Sometimes this is a lengthy, painful process. It is currently the position of the ABC to support ear cropping because we believe the erect cropped ear reduces the potential for infections and hematomas that often beset long-eared breeds.  However opponents of ear cropping believe there is little proof of any health benefits.   It should be noted that outside the U.S. ear cropping is increasingly discouraged and often illegal.  The decision should be left up to the owner and either decision is acceptable.


To me that's just a more informative, impartial, unbiased explanation.  Just an idea.
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

Not to get off topic, and please forgive me for being uneducated in this department but what is a hematoma?  I'm sure if I think about it I would know what it is, but I'm too tired to think :D
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

ABC version:
Yet again, that's the *old* version, which simply needs to be updated (there's a copyright process that needs to followed so it can't be done instantaneously).  I'll post, again, the current version:

[quote:znamc534]Ear cropping is customary and appropriate but not required
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

My apologies, I missed the current version.  I just saw the old version.  I think the new version is a pretty good compromise!  I never was very concise  :D  

Thanks for engaging in this debate, I find it to be very interesting.  Your knowledge and experience (and more importantly your awesome dogs!) are an asset to this website.
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

Not to get off topic, and please forgive me for being uneducated in this department but what is a hematoma?
There's nothing to forgive! :)  A hematoma is a blood-filled "pocket" on the ear flap; sometimes it can be drained with a needle but other times (like my girl) it needs to be cut open and the ear "pie-crust" stitched until it heals.  

Here's a good article on hematomas - slightly graphic photo if you're squeamish.  They describe it as feeling like a water balloon, which is exactly what I thought when I felt my girl's.
 
Re: I thought we were over this "White's are bad"

I just saw the old version.  I think the new version is a pretty good compromise!
Oh, good - I really was thinking I was completely out in left field!! ;)

Thanks for engaging in this debate, I find it to be very interesting.  Your knowledge and experience (and more importantly your awesome dogs!) are an asset to this website.
Well, thank you, very much.  :)  I often find that I learn more when debating a topic than I do researching it on my own, so as long as they remain civil I generally enjoy them.

Thanks!  Hope you're girl is all healed and feeling better....that sounds very painful.
She certainly was not a happy camper!  What's worse is the vet affixed a rigid piece of black plastic to the ear, so that it wouldn't fold along the open area, and she had an allergic reaction to that so her ear got quite swollen and very itchy for that week or so. :(  She's a trooper, though, and once the plastic came off and the stitches came out she was much happier, and now you can hardly tell where the hematoma was (the ear leather is just a little bit thicker in a certain spot, which I think actually is more due to the plastic reaction than the actual hematoma).
 
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