Intact vs neutered

Matt74 said:

Was just curious if any members on here have had male boxers left intact their entire lives.

Reason I ask, is because I saw research involving boxers where they recommended waiting till full skeletal maturity and less instances of common boxer issues. So I'm at the point of where I was going to get him neutered and I'm thinking what is the point.

Iv'e heard all the warnings of, aggression, dominance, mounting, etc. and I can say Zuke has none of those issues.

So is there really any reason to get it done? Because it sounds like the benefits of staying intact out way neutering.

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I struggled with this when our older boys were about 6 months old. We were told the same thing about aggression if they don't get fixed.... Obviously I can't say they would have been different if we did not get them fixed, however, I strongly believe they have their own personalities regardless.

Jax, my brindle alpha has always been the dominant one, he barks, he used to like other dogs but now is very picky.

Tundra, his fawn brother, is super laid back, likes being indoors more, loves pillows and cuddling, he gets along with other dogs so long as they aren't aggressive and scare him.

Bandit, our 1 year-old had not descended (had cryptorchidism) We waited until he was about 8 months to neuter him. Hindsight is 20/20 and I wish we would have waited on his neuter. That's a longer story.... but based on what we researched, there are cancer and other risks to waiting to neuter in this condition. Some of the data also said they may become more aggressive due to the testicles being internal which could cause higher testosterone levels. True he is still a puppy, but we didn't see any decline in his hyperactivity, barking or encouraging his brothers to play with him.
He is becoming more of a cuddler, but I think that's him aging and continuing to find his place in the pack.

They all love people, have typical boxer traits overall, but they for sure each have their own personalities that I don't think neutering has changed.

Sounds like you are being a responsible owner and you have to do what is right for you and Zuke.

chip18 said:

Aww well my basis for "Boxer Girls" is pretty clear, I would think???
But the girls were an accident for me, as I was a Male Dogs kinda guy! But when the crap went down many years ago ... and I needed a "Boxer" in my life (now) only females were available, at my locale "Breeder."

I do remember reading that rare among dogs, ... in Boxer's, the females are the more Dominant of the two sexes??? At the time ... I did not care. Boy or girl ... what's the difference??? I wanted/needed a Boxer now! So a girl it was! And ... that book I read was right!!!

The females are different??? The males are more eager to do whatever makes "you happy!" The females ... don't really care about you! They are more like ... "why should I care about what you want???"

The girls are lot a whole lot more crazy in a smaller "Boxer" package! That worked for me.

In rescue work I have worked with a few ... uh "supposedly" difficult male Boxers?? I found them to be a piece of cake! Eager to please as it were. IE what do you want me to do??? But I've not had the chance to work with a rescue female Boxer."

Anyway I don't tend to ask a lot of questions ... I've been told in the past. But I will ask one now! As when I went from two dogs to three .... I messed up, big time!

But I messed up unknowingly?? I went from "Mossler World" dogs these guys,:
Molossers breeds (Molosser dogs, Molossers, Mastiff breeds)

Dog's derived from Mastiffs ... ie APBT, and Boxers etc to a GSD and I got hammered ... hard????

In a nutshell ...that would be ... I don't like being number two in a pack ... GSD's are ... apparently "High Rank Drive" dogs?? Boxers/Molosser are low rank drive dogs ... my bad??? And add in, oh yeah ... I don't much care for uh ... anyone outside of my Human Pack ... either ... IE Human Aggression???!!! Oh well live and learn as they say ... worked out well in the long run.

But you went from two Boxers to three?? Were there any serious issues to be found??? Did the pack get along well???

Because as they say, "Leerburgh, two dogs are a pair ... three dogs are a pack" ... crap can change! :crazyeye:

Did you have any issues with three Boxers???

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We haven't really had any issues bringing the puppy in. One of your previous posts about Rocky reassured me that it is OK that Jax doesn't get along with all other dogs. I felt initially that it was my fault as an owner since he was fine for the first couple of years, we socialized him etc... and then it seemed one day he changed. I don't feel at fault anymore and we know he needs slow or 'no' introduction to other dogs.

He's the alpha boxer and we didn't want to disrupt the current pack, Tundra being happy as the beta. We had introduced a male rescue at one time to try to help the rescue socialize, and Jax did OK with him.

We wanted a male rescue to adopt as our third baby, however, we were always higher on the female boxer lists. We knew the females tend to dominate in boxers, and I've talked to people who have had several dogs over the years and it seems this can be somewhat common in other breeds too.

Our main concerns with bringing in a rescue was that they were good with other dogs and fate seemed to keep offering us females.

Let me say that I believe in and support rescue organizations and all that they do for millions of dogs. We had a bad experience, but I think it was rare for the boxers behavior and for an adoption.

We had a beautiful sweet one-year-old female reverse brindle rescue for about 6 weeks, about two years ago. I don't bring it up often as I think she was unusual for a boxer and there are still a lot of emotions when I think about her. It is a key reason why we got a puppy and is relevant to having 3 boxers, so I'll share. This is around the time I found the forum because I wanted to find a way to work through the issues....I was determined that she was home now...

To keep it short, we found out she was never good with other dogs by her original owner after we had to give her back to the rescue. The original owner had her since she left her litter. She said that she would randomly attack her older smaller dog, and she bit the owner which required stitches.

This made me feel a little better about our experience and having to give her up, but also a bit mad. So- our experience went OK for the first couple of weeks. It was Jax & Tundra- they were around 85Lbs each, and Hope was about 55 Lbs.

We were worried about Jax accepting her, but these two hit it off like gangbusters and they played a lot. We supervised them closely and every now and then there was a non-playful growl as they were working out the new pack structure/ acclimating.

Ironically, it was Tundra, the big sweet baby beta, who is good with most other dogs that it impacted badly. She wanted a toy he had and she suddenly grabbed onto his neck and I had to remove her; the next attack was a few days later. He understandably avoided her and we were more cautious/ aware. The third and last attack on Tundra was when my son was giving Tundra attention and she wanted it. She was (we were all) lucky Tundra never tried to fight back. She didn't draw blood but latched on tightly. We couldn't have him scared in his own home for a choice we made, and did not want things to escalate.

I call Hope sweet because she is a great only dog. I believe our part in her life was to help her get from where she was to her furever home. She went to a retired couple who had boxers in the past. She is an only dog and is spoiled and happy. I don't condone her behavior with Tundra and I think it is a very rare boxer that does something like this.

After that experience, a male puppy was the only option that fit what my husband would agree to and what we thought both of our boys would accept. We never want our boys to feel unsafe in their home.

Jax and Tundra were OK with the puppy. Tundra quickly learned that this little guy wasn't going to hurt him and they all play and sleep and eat together.

Jax and Bandit play much more than Tundra (that's their personalities). Bandit will get in their faces and talk to them or taunt them with a toy. Every now at then there's a correcting growl from Jax or Tundra. Bandit has learned when to let them be. It's not common that they growl at him.

There is no food or toy aggression. They are still working out their pack order to some degree and I wonder if Bandit is working into the alpha position. He's started drinking first and eating first...I may inquire on this on a later thread.

Up till now I'd say they all get along great. I have a friend who has adopted many dogs over the years and has had up to 5 at a time, mostly English Setters. She was amazed at how well Bandit integrated and settled into the pack.

I can't say what is or is not usual for 3 male boxers since this is our first real go-round with three. We don't want more than 3. Our boys have full run of the house and a dogie door for the backyard. They sleep with us in our room (we have a futon in the room for them, but we end up sharing it due to being crowded out at times). They know we are the primary alphas, and they know the basic commands. They all try to be in my lap at the same time on occasion, or will come up and crowd another one out so they get right next to Mom. There's no growling or fighting for any of this (not that it would be tolerated). There are the looks of disappointment and pouting at times....maybe that's in my head...

Sorry this is so long...I think it gives a better story/ picture.

chip18 said:

Sorry for the late reply ... I work 24 hour shifts these day so .... I "disappear at times."

And no, I don't expect you have all the answers for all three male dog owners?? But I will say that your experience, is what I expected would happen when I went up to three dogs?? But for me ... it did not work out so well??? But for me ... my dog number three was not a Boxer??? It was a GSD! And while I do have more to add about the "girl Boxer's" in particular ... in my case "Struddell was not a factor (directly) in the "Chaos" that was to ensue.

The pack fights, the ensuing trip to the ER for me for stitches and the people thing! Struddell was not a factor ... AFAIK?? She was never involved in any of the male on male household dust ups???

Now it could be that Rocky my (Over Size Working Line GSD) copped an attitude because he felt Struddell was his dog??? I don't know??? But I do know that Struddell "Adored Rocky???" She had spent her whole life with Gunther but Rocky (GSD) was something special for her???

I never saw "issues coming???" And there were none for about six months???
And then at about 14 months old and 116 lbs ... Rocky decided that Struddell, was "his" dog and Gunther ... had to go????

Struddell did not contribute to this issue directly??? But because she was "Daddy's Girl," I let her dictate how I trained Rocky??? Sooo no one on training with him for a very long time because well Struddell did not like that???

Rocky was "apparently" the wrong dog, wrong Breed, wrong approach for that to work??? Gunther, passed and I still had serious Rocky issues??? And now to fix them ... I had to tell her "NO!" You have to stay home! It's a boy's night out as it were. It was only many weeks later that Marilyn told me that Struddell was having a cow when left her at home???

I do want to say ... that you did much better at protecting your original dogs then I did. Gunther bore the full brunt of Rocky's fury while I got my act together ... my bad.

But it seems like despite the issues, you did good! You "discovered" that your girl had issues??? That rescue, kinda used you as a temporary foster home ... what issues does this dog have??" And you discovered them and then managed to find her a more suitable home.

And while that was not your original plan ... I just wanna say, once again ... you did good! :cheers:

Yours was a long post and I kinda went on one of my usual tangents??? Sooo I got a part two coming up ... more Girl centric as it were!

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I fully understand delays in responding as work and life keep us busy. I appreciate your responding and for the reassurance that we did the right thing with Hope. She will always have a piece of my heart and all of the furkids are safe and happy.

We all do what we believe to be right at the time. It's understandable that you didn't want to give up on resolving the issues between Gunther and Rocky. Once you make a commitment, especially to a rescue, you want to fight (no pun intended) for them and do all you can to give them stability.

From my perspective, you continue to learn from your experiences and you research and try new methods to continue to improve your training skills. You do a good job of sharing your knowledge and advising others. I'm sure you did what you felt was best for you and your pack, and that you had the best of intentions.

It's like parenting...we didn't get an all inclusive instruction manual for every situation, personality, etc..., however, we are evolving and learning from the things that go well and those that don't go so well so we can do better in the future. :cheers:

Hindsight is always 20/20.... we for sure have made mistakes- like those in the thread you shared above....and we would do things different if we got a 'do over'. I did what I thought was good research on what to expect and how to assimilate the rescue into our home...we were making progress and would have stuck it out were it not for the attacks.

With an adoption/rescue we definitely expected to have some issues to work through since you don't usually know the background and what these babies have been through (even a senior is a baby to me).
I understand there's a lot of emotions as the owner between your current pack and the new addition. You don't want to fail any of them, want the best life for all of them, expect that there has to be a way to get them to live together peacefully, want to keep a commitment to them...get attached to them quickly..... I felt so bad not keeping my promise to Hope that she was in her furever home - guilty, failure, loss, etc.... I was happy that she was now in a home where she was the only dog and that she'd be spoiled by people who owned boxers in the past. Tundra slowly go back to himself, we were happy he felt safe again; we didn't have to worry about random attacks on him. Felt bad for Jax since he and Hope played well together. Our son had become attached to her too.... it was the right thing at the time, and it is in retrospect. We would still do things different than we did had we known what we know now.
I didn't feel as bad or guilty after the original owner told us her story...I still feel the loss and miss her when I think of her...

Jax cleared out when she attacked Tundra- I found that surprising too since Tundra is his litter mate, and Jax is the alpha.....but I wonder too if he backed up because he know we were there and we were usually the fastest to respond- verbally and physically.....hard to say...

So, we learned that this was not the best choice for us, and a puppy was the right fit for us to get a 3rd. Everyday after work I’m greeted by wiggles and jumps and kisses. I couldn’t imagine life without them.

It's great that you were able to let it go and accept Rocky for who he was. Sounds like Gunther was helping you with Rocky based on the data above. I wonder how much of our emotions we reflect onto our dogs, especially in high stress situations or we are dealing with things.. I'm sure you knew Gunther well and are a good judge of his perspective. From your various posts it's clear how much all of your furkids meant to you.