Boxer Breed Dog Forums banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
319 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
PERMISSION GRANTED TO CROSS-POST THIS MESSAGE.

In an article from the October-December 2007, Vol. 26, #3 Journal of American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association, entitled Summary of a Presentation by Dr. Ron Schultz written by Patricia Monahan Jordan, DVM, it states that "Kennel cough is not a vaccinatable disease, realize this and stop the boarding kennels from making the dogs sick."

Regarding the Bordetella (Kennel Cough) vaccine, on Page 2 of the American Animal Hospital Association's 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines and Recommendations, it states that "Optional or 'noncore' vaccines are those that the committee believe should be considered only in special circumstances because their use is more dependent  on the exposure risk of the individual animal.  Issues of geographic distribution and lifestyle should be considered before administering these vaccines.  In addition, the diseases involved are generally self-limiting or respond readily to treatment.  The committee believes this group of vaccines comprises distemper-meases virus (D-MV), canine parainfluenza virus (CPIV), Leptospira spp., Bordetella bronchispetica, and Borrelia burdorferi."

Further, on Page 14 of the AAHA Guidelines, it states:  [b:1pbqvfgn]"[i:1pbqvfgn]Bordetella bronchiseptica (B. bronchiseptica): Bordetella bronchiseptica is another cause of the
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,597 Posts
The daycare that Oggie goes to requires that I vaccinate him with bortedella every 6 months.  I'm very concerned about the over-vaccinating that seems to run rampant these days, but my hands are tied here.  I think it's pretty standard at daycares to requires this but I'm not sure.  The one we go to says kennel cough has been going around a lot lately so there are no exceptions.  Anyone have any thoughts on whether this vaccination is really necessary?  Even the vet really didn't push it on me, I had to ask for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,597 Posts
Is that the oral application or is there a bigger difference?  I do remember the kennel cough being given orally
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
172 Posts
sully\";p=\"89294 said:
The daycare that Oggie goes to requires that I vaccinate him with bortedella every 6 months.  I'm very concerned about the over-vaccinating that seems to run rampant these days, but my hands are tied here.  I think it's pretty standard at daycares to requires this but I'm not sure.  The one we go to says kennel cough has been going around a lot lately so there are no exceptions.  Anyone have any thoughts on whether this vaccination is really necessary?  Even the vet really didn't push it on me, I had to ask for it.
I think it's pretty standard for all daycares, boarding facilities and group training classes to require Bordetella, but I just found out it's not as necessary as you might think.  I called a local dog training facility to get Atticus signed up and I specifically asked them if they had any requirements of Atticus before he enrolled (I was thinking vaccines, because I'm really uncomfortable with all the multi-vaccs and, IMO, unnecessary vaccs that are de rigueur these days).  Anyway, she determined that he was old enough and said that was the only requirement.  But, when the paperwork came in the mail for me to fill out, lo and behold they had all sorts of vacc requirements, Bordetella among them.  

I called them and said that I would need to cancel my reservation because I wasn't comfortable with giving lots of vaccinations and she passed me on to someone else in the facility to discuss the possibility of private lessons.  When I told this person of my reason for opting out of group classes, she said "Oh, it's not a problem for him to skip the Bordetella.  You simply need to sign a waiver saying that you understand the risk to your own dog should he be unvaccinated."    When we went in for our first class, they didn't even require that.  They simply looked over my paperwork, said they needed to contact the vet about the Bordetella issue and when I explained what I'd been told by someone in their administrative office they said "Oh, okay."  And that was that - I didn't even need to sign anything.

All of which leads me to believe it's really more a case of CYA for them and that when push comes to shove they'd rather have your training (or boarding) dollars than push the issue.

AnnA
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
172 Posts
sully\";p=\"89444 said:
Is that the oral application or is there a bigger difference?  I do remember the kennel cough being given orally
I just googled it and it's apparently a homeopathic remedy.  

But I wanted to add one other warning to the topic and that is that short-nosed breeds like Boxers should never be given the intranasal form of the Bordetella vaccine; rather they should only receive it in the form of a shot.  The intranasal form apparently CAUSES kennel cough in 95 per cent of short-nosed dogs who receive it.  

AnnA
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,597 Posts
Oh that's right, Sharon you are right....they gave it to him in the nose.  I just knew it wasn't a shot.  

But wait a minute...95 percent catch the kennel cough when it's given that way?  Is this really true?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,939 Posts
I realized I did not respond to what you were asking.....Most 5-way vaccines and 'kennel cough' vaccines offer some protection against this virus. That is the main issue with it.  There are so many strains of it that sometimes the vaccine does not work.  It also has to be given DAYS before the dog will be exposed (boarded) and some people wait until the last minute and get it.  

I personally do not feel they need it every six months and would talk to the daycare and your vet about it.

I use Pfizer's injectible and nasal kennel cough and right on the label it says:


Suggested Vaccination Program


Puppies: Initial vaccination of puppies is recommended at 8 weeks of age.The effect of the presence of maternal antibodies to B. bronchiseptica upon the puppy
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Bruce got vaccinated for kennel cough before he went to daycare and he is now sick with it.  He has had for about a week now, we took him to the vet and he's on some medication.  After one day of medicine he already sounds much better.  Its awful to hear him waking up in the night coughing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
172 Posts
sully\";p=\"89513 said:
Oh that's right, Sharon you are right....they gave it to him in the nose.  I just knew it wasn't a shot.  

But wait a minute...95 percent catch the kennel cough when it's given that way?  Is this really true?
I got the information from my breeder's website and just accepted that it was accurate.  (I don't usually do that!)  But I've been googling it for the past ten minutes and can't find anything to support the contention.  I wrote to my breeder asking if she would share her sources for the warning and will post her answer if and when I get it.  

If anyone wants to see her warning in its entirety, PM me and I'll give you her website address.  

AnnA
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,939 Posts
Yes I would be interested to know how she came to that number.  I will say that it can happen.  With the injectible and nasal one.  It is like getting a flu shot...sometimes it gives you the flu.....But, IMO and what I have seen it is not very common.   I would guess to even say 5% if that high.  So, if she responds let me know where she sites her source....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,552 Posts
In a clinical study by Larson and colleagues, nosodes administered to dogs completely failed to protect against death due to parvovirus when these dogs were administered nosodes of parvovirus-infected tissue over a period of time and then subsequently challenged with the pathogen.
To be fair, that's an inappropriate use of nosodes. :)  They're not actually meant to be used like vaccinations, since homeopathy is based on an entirely different approach to disease, so it's not surprising that they don't work the same as vaccinations.  Dr. Christopher Day in the UK has done some trials with nosodes, but nothing as large-scale or formal as studies - he hasn't done parvo in dogs, only kennel cough, but found them to be highly effective when used "semi-properly".  (My definition, meaning mass-group dosage *after* known exposure to a disease, but without taking into account the totality of the individual's symptoms - which is the truly proper use of homeopathic remedies.)  

As far as kennel cough goes, my dogs stopped getting kennel cough when I stopped vaccinating for it; even though every year we bring KC home from the ABC, and my friends' vaccinated dogs get it to varying degrees, we haven't had more than a day or two of coughing, at worst, here since 2002 (and ironically - or maybe not - my never-vaccinated dogs have consistently had the least amount of KC symptoms, basically a stuffy nose for a day).  So, in my experience, for my dogs, the vaccine is completely unnecessary and contradictory - YMMV, of course.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
319 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Our dogs' experience mirrors Newcastle's , the dogs we stopped giving the kennel cough vaccine to were the only ones who never caught it at the boarding kennel -- the other 3 who were vaccinated got it every time and I started wondering if the vaccine was giving it to them.

For our dogs, we now follow a minimalist vaccine protocol, we give them the standard distemper, hepatitis, and parvo vaccines once separately after the age of 16 weeks and that's it unless a titer shows they didn't respond.  I am aware of the research that demonstrated dogs were not effectively protected by nosodes and would not rely on them exclusively for my own animals for the core canine diseases.  For kennel cough required to go to daycare or a dog class, I'd opt for that over the conventional approach for my guys.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
172 Posts
sharonL\";p=\"89554 said:
So, if she responds let me know where she sites her source....
When I wrote I told her someone had asked "is this true" and further asked that she share her sources for the info.  This was her reply:

"It is true... my vet made this discovery.  She noticed that most of the time when she gave this vaccine to a boxer they would come down with kennel cough...then if  it wasn't treated properly it would turn into pneumonia.  I had over half of our dogs come down with kennel cough after being given the bordetella intranasal vaccine.  Three of them came down with pneumonia and we almost lost them...I recently had to customers lose their dogs because they were given this vaccine and came down with kennel cough and then got pneumonia and died.  So this vaccine should really never be given to a boxer.  What my vet thinks causes them to come down with kennel cough is because there noses are so short that it doesn't have time to dissipate fast enough and gets into the lungs and brings on the kennel cough and then pneumonia.  So I heard this from my vet and it does seem to happen that way.  I will not honor any health guarantee if this vaccine has been given and dies."

*************

So, when she said that ninety-five percent of brachycephalic dogs who are vaccinated intranasally end up getting kennel cough, it appears be a number she just pulled out of the air.  I apologize for not checking it out more thoroughly before I posted it here.  I tend to be a bit vaccine-phobic so I guess I was predisposed to accept the word of someone I "know" when it supported my general skepticism about vaccine safety.  Mea culpa!

AnnA

P.S.  I do believe there is a great deal of value in anecdotal evidence when it comes to vaccine safety, however.  I could go on and on with the reasons, but I'll leave it at that.  ;-)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,939 Posts
The thing with it,  is that there probably is "some" truth to it.  I can see her point on the short nose dog.  I dont know that I would lump all boxers in there and I know I have not seen this happen specifically in a boxer.....That would be some what limited on the dog itself, because as you know some of them have longer nose then others.  Now, that same situation on a Pug or a Boston Terrier, I could see....

It may certainly be true that her vet told her that and there is always difference in vets and what they see.  I am very strong on pushing Parvo shots in my area because I see it so much of it...Ya know?  I am not so much on this issue because I would say that it has been at least a year since I have seen kennel cough vaccine give it to them...

I had someone come in with a "breeder warranty" the other day on a Yorki that said the Yorki was NOT ALLOWED to be vaccinated with Lepto and the breeder had basically made the owner think it would kill the dog if it got the shot, no other information....Now there is plenty of thoughts on that vaccine and reactions to it as well, but the breeder was not very informed and was certainly passing bad information to the buyers of her puppy....

I also agree with what Newcastle said.......for me personally I dont see a need for the kennel cough for my dog and I dont give it to my own dog.  She goes to work with me 3 days a week, so she is exposed to many things weekly and has never got even a cold......But, I do understand the reason behind the vaccine and wanting it for a kennel facility, training facility and boarding situation.....a kennel cough epedimic is horrible and I have been through one with the Houston SPCA.....So, it is "some" protection for the dog....But, it is more a cover your butt situation for the people that are requiring you to have it..........
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
744 Posts
Every single time I've vaccinated for Bordatella with the intranasal vaccine, the dog has contracted the disease from the vaccine with first symptoms showing within two to three days. One handler I've used in the past required that all dogs that go out with them be vaccinated for Bordatella. In discussion with her, she said that her experience was the same - that each dog that they vaccinated intranasally contracted the disease. As a result, they switched to the injectable vaccine, which has not caused the disease when administered.

Regardless, I don't use the vaccine because I feel that it's essentially worthless. 1) It only covers 5 strains of the disease, even though there are hundreds. 2) If my dogs get KC, I feel that I'm observant enough to know when/if it turns to pneumonia. 3) I'm also conscientious enough to contain the disease if contracted and I don't allow my dogs to associate with other dogs, send them out to show circuits or go to classes if they're sick. Besides, I feel that stronger and more effective immunity is produced by naturally contracting the disease anyway.

Just my 3 cents, FWIW.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
744 Posts
On Lepto, I've heard far too many accounts of anaphylaxis in boxers to feel comfortable with giving it or recommending it. In fact, one of my bitches' littermates went down, had to be intibated, kept on meds and fluids for 48 hours as a direct result of this vaccine. I've heard many very similar accounts on the show list, and other message boards like this one, and many breeders maintain that this is the worst of all vaccines (where boxers are concerned). Just not a chance I'm willing to take.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
882 Posts
BurningRiver\";p=\"89911 said:
On Lepto, I've heard far too many accounts of anaphylaxis in boxers to feel comfortable with giving it or recommending it. In fact, one of my bitches' littermates went down, had to be intibated, kept on meds and fluids for 48 hours as a direct result of this vaccine. I've heard many very similar accounts on the show list, and other message boards like this one, and many breeders maintain that this is the worst of all vaccines (where boxers are concerned). Just not a chance I'm willing to take.
Ya I'm kinda concerned with the lepto vaccine as well, Gaby has been vaccinated for it at 9 weeks old with no reaction, but when it comes time to re-vaccinate I'm debating doing it now after reading all this info...but I still want her to be protected from it as we live near lake erie and we will be boating and swimming there during the summer, and I do know that lepto is common in the area...so at this point i'm still undecided...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,939 Posts
On kennel cough, my preference will always be the injectible............

On the lepto and Gabys comment......That is what must always be considered with all vaccinations is the "need" vs the possiblities...........

I can respect what everyone is saying about what they have seen in their own dogs or have been told or read, there is alot of information out there, and when it comes to internet reading there is always some good information and some not as informative....

I have never been one to push vaccine's and I am okay with people not wanting to get them each year or wanting to titer test.  I also do not vaccinate my dog for every little thing every 6 or 12 months....I also see where it is questionable on giving vaccines that dont cover every strain that is out there, such as lepto...there are over 200 reported strains........

In my line of work......Watching a yellow eyed, yellow skin dog in full kidney/ liver failure that could have "possibly" been protected with a vaccine or treating a litter of Parvo pups that are passsing away one by one that could have been "possibly" protected with proper vaccines, or visiting a kennel that went from dogs waiting to be adopted to a mass euthanasia from a distemper outbreak or one in a full kennel cough epedemic.....sure my passion runs deep ..............

I can only base my opinions on what I see personally with these vaccinations, in my area, at my hospital and with my patients....and that is generally about 100 dogs a week....so doing the math of vaccinating about 5200 dogs a year and seeing 3 to 4 reactions a year...I would not say that reactions are common, of course this is alot of breeds of dogs not just boxers, but certainly including them....
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top