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Working the dog doesn’t drive the genetics, the boxer is genetically already a working dog. A non “working line” puppy can be trained to work

Wouldn't it be nice if that was really true!
Not just for boxers for other breeds as well... GSD, Labs, pointer...

Working the dog doesn't drive the genetics. But, genetics (ability to work) do play a part in the breeding from working breeders.

Can a non working line boxer "work".. sure but they are more the exception to the rule.
If someone want to do sport/comp with a boxer why take a chance on a non working breeder?

If what you say was true... Every GSD would be a police dog.
 

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Some interesting thoughts – if what you say is true, then every GSD pup from a working line will pass as a police dog, not sure where the facts come from that a non-working line boxer can make it but this would be an exception, a boxer is by nature a working dog. Then again, pups from a so called working line do not always meet expectations.
Working dogs does not necessarily mean IPO or Shutzhund, I’m not sure if our discussion is on this.
Police are favoring the Malinois over the GSD because they are more eager to work and learn faster – a Malinois would not be a good choice for a novice dog owner – not quite the right “personality” because they are the way they are, not because they are from a working dog line.
Boxers should be worked, they need it and they need to be kept mentally and physically occupied and it’s always good to have a dog that listens and behaves when needed.
Working dogs is sport, the dogs enjoy it and it’s good to have a controlled dog. It’s also used as a selling point, a dog with tiles sells pups at a higher price.
My view is that a trainer / helper is the key to get the most out of a working dog breed – these can also be pups from a non or limited “working dog” line
 

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Some interesting thoughts – if what you say is true, then every GSD pup from a working line will pass as a police dog, not sure where the facts come from that a non-working line boxer can make it but this would be an exception, a boxer is by nature a working dog. Then again, pups from a so called working line do not always meet expectations.
Working dogs does not necessarily mean IPO or Shutzhund, I’m not sure if our discussion is on this.
Police are favoring the Malinois over the GSD because they are more eager to work and learn faster – a Malinois would not be a good choice for a novice dog owner – not quite the right “personality” because they are the way they are, not because they are from a working dog line.
Boxers should be worked, they need it and they need to be kept mentally and physically occupied and it’s always good to have a dog that listens and behaves when needed.
Working dogs is sport, the dogs enjoy it and it’s good to have a controlled dog. It’s also used as a selling point, a dog with tiles sells pups at a higher price.
My view is that a trainer / helper is the key to get the most out of a working dog breed – these can also be pups from a non or limited “working dog” line
Actually, that's not what I said. If you look back I said
"Pretty simple, a better chance you're going to get a pup with the genetics to work."
To imply that all working lines will "work" is wrong, just the same as implying show/non working lines will "work".

If someone is wanting to do sport/comp with their boxer why would not choose a breeder that breeds for those characteristics? Why not give yourself the best chance to reach that goal?

Now, if you're talking IPO/IPG sport... it's even more important to pick the right breeder.
A really good trainer and great helper/decoy will be a great asset but if the dog doesn't have the genetics to engage in the work.. its a bit of a waste of time.
 

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I agree that looking for a breeder who considers the working side of breeding would be a good option for a pup to work with later. However, a dog has the necessary drive or it doesn’t, or on different levels, the trainer will need to understand the limits and boundaries.
If you are saying that a good breeder who will take all efforts to breed a line a with a strong drive (so good selection) , then I would agree that the line will probably be good at working.
A good trainer, who understands what he is doing, sensitive to the dogs personality and who knows when to encourage the dog will be able to get most boxers to work, simply because of the nature of the boxer, irrespective if the dog is from a working line or not.
 

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I agree that looking for a breeder who considers the working side of breeding would be a good option for a pup to work with later. However, a dog has the necessary drive or it doesn’t, or on different levels, the trainer will need to understand the limits and boundaries.
If you are saying that a good breeder who will take all efforts to breed a line a with a strong drive (so good selection) , then I would agree that the line will probably be good at working.
A good trainer, who understands what he is doing, sensitive to the dogs personality and who knows when to encourage the dog will be able to get most boxers to work, simply because of the nature of the boxer, irrespective if the dog is from a working line or not.
Well I get what you are saying ... "all Boxers" are "working Line Dogs" agreed. But as it stands not all "Boxers can work??"

You have to pick your battles or more accurately, chose your lines??As It happened a very long time ago ... when the Boxers were "apparently" re-introduced to America after WWll. Those original dogs "were thought to be to fierce, to be let lose on an unsuspecting American Public???" So they "changed them!" And thus we have here ... the American Line Boxer, still a "Working Dog" true enough but not the same?? Smaller, lighter slimmer and uh ...kinda goofy.:)

And frankly how the "Goofy thing happened??" Is still something I don't understand but it is there?? "The clown prince of the dog world" as it were and the the AL Boxers fans are legion!:)

In America ... the gal was to produce a true "Boxer" that nearly anyone can deal with. And yeah they are still kinda crazy ... but they are "civil!" Typically that means ... no Human Aggression, being kinda nutty was just a by product ... I assume??

Now the GSD ... which BTE2 threw under the bus ... by contrast ... even the pet quality BYB puppies ... don't tend to much care for people??? It can be limited to strangers outside the home .. .if one is halfway competent or they will threaten "you" if your not that good! That crap happens ... all the time!

There prime objective ... is "still" to bite strangers ... regardless of heritage and they still seem to be uh ..."good at there job??" Research GSD and you won't find ... "Goofy" being one of there breed characteristic, believe that. :)

So that said ... back to Boxers. So I take your point all "Boxer" are still "Working Line Dogs" but ... not all Boxers can work??? It depends on the job, the American Line Boxers and it sounds like that is the line you are "biased towards??" Is no longer suited towards the K9, MWD,LE,PPD thing???

Now maybe they (AL Boxer) can still do that stuff but people whose lives depend on there on their job or who people who pursue the IPO Mondo Ring as a serious sport ... just won't bother with an Al Boxer??

Now it doesn't really matter, it is a different job for different lines of Boxers. And the fans of the American Line Boxers are legion! They are luv'd world wide for who and what they are! :)

But if you try to use in the world of IPO or Mondo Ring?? Yeah that is gonna be an uphill battle??? How and whatever they did ...way back when??Is your first obstacle to overcome??? A typical well trained, well adjusted Al Boxer ... is not that interested in biting/attacking people???

And as it happens, I did not believe, such was not the case?? It takes the right drives and the right temperament for a dog to be successful at the IPO/Mondo Ring/LE/PPD thing.

And it's not that hard to find to an answer?? As ...what you're asking ... I have already pursued ... years ago as it happened. :)

Now I will grant we don't know what line you have or what your goals are??
But you are talking to someone that has been there done that and they could chose whatever line they want ..."bte2." And they chose a Euro Boxer, pretty much ...nuff said, there.

Now if your goal is to prove a point and you have the time money and energy to pursue the IPO/Mondo Ring thing with an American Line Boxer ?? Well ... you'd have my support but I would have to add ... good luck with that! :)

I tried online to find such a Boxer ... many,many years ago! And I found ... exactly "ONE!" And after a 10 year career when I found him, that dog was retried?? I do remember seeing a post of the police station where he worked.
But I did not pursue it, cuz you know I found one AL Boxer doing the LE K9 thing thing so surely there must be more??

But ...no apparently ... I was wrong??? That American LE K9, Boxer, was apparently a case of that "guy and that dog?" Since the dog was retired I stopped my pursuit, I'd found one Al LE Boxer ... surely there must be more?? But apparently I was wrong???

And in years of searching thus far .. I have not found another American Boxer doing the LE K9 thing??? It's just no longer in there nature for the most part?? They are good at what they do however being good with kids and a safe friendly family pet .. that is good enough for 100's of thousands of us and good enough for me. If I want my next AL Boxer to have a job and I do ... I'll find something suited to what she does. :)

If you want to do the IPO/Mondo Ring thing with a Boxer?? It is most likely best to just get a Euro and call it a day?? You'll stil have to fing the "right " puppy but your odds of success will be better. :) :)
 

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We - have a German boxer, also very goofy, I guess all boxers are the same and I would venture to say that boxers don’t typically bite people, that’s not their nature. We have never had any incidents, and Ben is not our first. Yes, the American Boxer is slimmer than what you call the “euro” boxer, the UK Boxer is not quite the same as the German boxer. The goal is not to attack or bite people, schutzhund is only for training ground – at home, the boxer is a different dog.
We work our dogs, but it’s not an obsession.
 

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There are some things to consider. Why does someone want a "working" dog? Do they plan to actually work the dog? Do they know what a "working" dog really is? Some people use it as a buzz word or to try and make a puppy sale. The truth is a true "working" dog has a high prey drive. They are go go go constantly and definitely think outside the box. So if you really really want that, then realize what you are asking for. And it takes a certain type of an owner/trainer to properly direct such a working/prey drive. Just like not every breed is for everyone. Not every ability is for everyone.

Boxers typically have a high prey drive. Obviously some dogs are more driven than others. But their pedigree does NOT make them the dog they are. And a "working" dog does not have a healthier genetic make up simply because of that designation. Every Boxer is different.
 

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There are some things to consider. Why does someone want a "working" dog? Do they plan to actually work the dog? Do they know what a "working" dog really is? Some people use it as a buzz word or to try and make a puppy sale. The truth is a true "working" dog has a high prey drive. They are go go go constantly and definitely think outside the box. So if you really really want that, then realize what you are asking for. And it takes a certain type of an owner/trainer to properly direct such a working/prey drive. Just like not every breed is for everyone. Not every ability is for everyone.

Boxers typically have a high prey drive. Obviously some dogs are more driven than others. But their pedigree does NOT make them the dog they are. And a "working" dog does not have a healthier genetic make up simply because of that designation. Every Boxer is different.
Good question(s) – as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, more titles more money for the pups, and I also mentioned that a boxer generally has the genetics to perform well as a working dog – but a good trainer is required – and a patient owner. I cant quite follow the comments on “pedigree does not make them the dog the are”, could you please elaborate.
We have always worked our dogs – for the purpose of this discussion I suggest we define that as IPO / Schutzhund etc. Working can also mean agility – with working I do not mean an Australian shepherd - something completely different.
 

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LOL!!!!! Sealed Brindle? Please ask them to take their Boxer out of the bag and let them breathe :)

(seriously, there is no such thing as a sealed brindle.....just sayin')
Good point, the Boxer Club of Munich does not recognize a sealed brindle as standard – not quite sure what “sealed” means, I guess black? I believe the US does not recognize the Boxer Club Munich / FCI standards – so in essence breeders in the US can sell “sealed” – correct me if I am wrong
 

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I live in Germany, ben is now six months and is a real pain in the …. at the moment
And that's the reason you feel all boxers can work.
You have the benefit of having a larger number of boxer klubs and owners working in the sport.(IPO/IPG)
That is not the case here in the US.
Boxers are rarely seen in the IPO sport. And the boxers that are bred here tend to be for show only and don't have the temperament for IPO work.
There are a hand full of breeders that work their dogs in the sport and all of them use imported boxer to get the right temperament.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Thanks so much for all the great comments, everyone! I'll try to respond to everything for which I have anything to say.

I don't think joining the U.S. Boxer Club is a good idea for me because my impression is that is mostly or entirely for Schutzhund and other aggression/protection type work, in which I am not interested.

Obviously all working dogs have to want to work to be successful, but there are many different types of work. If I were interested in Schutzhund then buying from a breeder who works and competes successfully would be an absolute requirement to me. Since I'm not interested in Schutzhund or any other type of aggression/attack type work, but only things like rally, obedience and agility, it's not nearly as important a factor, and I think a dog just being from these types of bloodlines, full of ancestors who loved to work, has a much greater chance of being successful in rally, obedience and agility. One benefit that someone in this thread mentioned is that working breeders know what to look for in very young puppies and would be more likely to help me pick a dog who will be more successful in the types of work I want to do with her. However, I think it would be foolish to sacrifice so many other important factors, like even being able to see pedigrees or health test results, just to be able to buy from a working breeder.

I do not want to import a dog, because I wouldn't want a tiny scared puppy on a dangerous plane for all that time, wouldn't be able to meet the breeder, relatives and so much else, plus I have read from many sources that European breeders often "dump" their "lesser" dogs on U.S. buyers.

I know that there is not really a such thing as a sealed brindle, but my understanding is it's kind of a slang term for very dark brindle, maybe almost appearing black, which is a color I'd love to have, but will settle for any healthy brindle girl with a great temperament.

I sure hope my European line Boxer is still goofy like all my others have been!

The truth is a true "working" dog has a high prey drive. They are go go go constantly and definitely think outside the box. So if you really really want that, then realize what you are asking for. And it takes a certain type of an owner/trainer to properly direct such a working/prey drive. Just like not every breed is for everyone. Not every ability is for everyone.
Excellent point! I worry with the growing popularity of European working line Boxers and other working breeds that too many of them are ending up with the wrong owners, not given nearly enough mental or physical exercise or worse, being abused by people who had no idea their working dog would never settle down.

Besides having owned four previous Boxers, I've spent time with many working dogs, a variety of breeds and sports, and am absolutely sure that I want and would be an excellent home for a super high drive working Boxer! :) Most dogs wouldn't even be physically capable of keeping up with me on my normal daily exercise; I need one that can do that and a lot more.

I have some updated news about the puppy I'm getting next year. Resistance may or may not be bred since she was bred this spring, she may get next year off. Regardless, she will definitely be bred to Danabol and never Aramis again because despite Resistance appearing to be classic/plain, the Aramis litter had white puppies which the breeder wants to avoid. But even if Resistance is not bred next year, I spoke to her breeder on the phone last night and she told me about two exciting 3-year-old females she has undergoing the health testing process and if everything goes well with that they will be bred next year. They are:

Allegiance (sire Aramis https://europeanandsealedbrindleboxers.webs.com/aramisvomdrachenstich.htm dam Fiona https://europeanandsealedbrindleboxers.webs.com/fiona-signum-laudis)

and

Divergence (sire Argento https://europeanandsealedbrindleboxers.webs.com/argentooptimusdizara.htm dam Hevea) no link for Hevea yet but I'll get one and have seen pics of her

Allegiance's pic is attached, so gorgeous! :)

I think this, as long as their health tests are excellent, is a better idea. I'd rather get a puppy from younger parents (though Resistance is only 6) because I think that gives the puppies a better chance at living longer, healthier lives. Also, hopefully none of the parents will have C hips.
 

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And that's the reason you feel all boxers can work.
You have the benefit of having a larger number of boxer klubs and owners working in the sport.(IPO/IPG)
That is not the case here in the US.
Boxers are rarely seen in the IPO sport. And the boxers that are bred here tend to be for show only and don't have the temperament for IPO work.
There are a hand full of breeders that work their dogs in the sport and all of them use imported boxer to get the right temperament.


Actually there are quite a few Boxers who are getting IPO titles in the US. The Boxers involved in Schutzhund here are also members of the American Federation of Working Dogs. There are very strict guidelines for breeding, and showing. It's not showing you would see in an AKC event, but Schutzhund Obedience which would be called a BH. The stamina requirement title is called an AD (all German names). For the AD, a Boxer no younger than 14 months, will run along side a bicycle (on leash) for five miles to begin with. Then the dog rests for fifteen minutes, before running again. If the judge notices the dog is severely fatigued, the dog is disqualified. Even after a longer run the dog needs to be alert enough to pass a basic obedience task. Breeding comes in here so that a dog is not injured because it has poor confirmation, bad hips, or any type of genetic heart disease.


The American Federation of Working Dogs came about when the AKC outlawed any type of protection work, saying that it was aggressive by nature, and I guess scary to witness.


1990 AKC Schutzhund Ban


When you get further into obedience, tracking, and IPO work, there are tasks that easily disqualify a dog if it shows "any" sign of aggression to humans or other animals. The dog is disqualified, despite all the work and breeding that has gone into it. Many of the shows are judged by German judges that come over to the US.


We seem to mix up what IPO work is, and Schutzhund Clubs. There are many types of working Boxers do outside of that. I feel badly that there is still some type of belief that Boxers involved in Schutzhund sport are aggressive. You need to find a show to go to, you'll be amazed.


I don't know about buying a dog from Germany. I think those breeders involved in Schutzhund here spend lots of time looking at different breeding lines. I would be very concerned about buying a dog just because it has German lines. There are rules about breeding in Germany, but that doesn't mean people are following them. At least you can find some very reputable breeders in the US who have bred into some Europeon lines. You might get the names by looking at members of sporting clubs like agility clubs, etc.


The most important thing we can do as buyers is make the commitment to see our Boxer through good, and bad, for the entire dog's lifespan. You need to be in for life with this dog unless there are conditions that would make it very dangerous.
 

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I think we need some clarification on “Schutzhund” and “aggression” training. Schutzhund is not aggression training – if you would approach anyone in the BK in Germany and ask for aggression training, then the response would be – “not here, please leave”
Schutzhund is not part of the BH examination, it is however a small part of the ZTP
I have been told that US Boxers don’t have the same drive as German Boxers, this does not mean that all German Boxers, need and want to work (IPO etc.) They are energetic dogs that need exercising, agility is fine and nice long walks, if you want some mental exercise then try trailing. They are great family dogs like yours in the US.
They are goofy, they are called “clowns” over here, probably not much different to your US Boxers. It’s a myth that there might be a risk issue with pups from an older female – it’s not true.
Hundreds of boxers are sold each year in Germany, hundreds never see a training ground or are worked.
A breeder has no clue if a “young puppy” is going to be a good working dog – the pups are handed over between 8-12 weeks. The breeder will be able to tell if the pup will be a nice looking dog when its and adult.
I have never heard of “European Breeders” dumping pup on to Americans, this would imply that German breeders think Americans to be ignorant – there are many ignorant dog owners, many of which can also be found in Germany.
All male German Boxers used for breeding will have some form of working title, this will not make all pups future working dogs – working a boxer is a choice, not a must, and those boxers not “worked” are all perfect – but they need the exercise. The wrong owner for a boxer is a person who does not understand this, does not have the time or is too lazy – a boxer dog will suffer.
As to health testing – this should be done within 12-24 months, not after three years.
Anyone in Germany can breed Boxers, but if the breeder is a member of the BK then there are very strict guidelines.
Its hard for me to understand why the question “trying to find a reputable breeder” pops up as a thread – what’s the problem in the US? Is it the size of the country and the travel that makes it difficult to find one nearby, or is there a real problem?
 
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