[SiriusDad]

I haven't even brought my puppy home yet, and I have already had someone tell me that he should have been culled.  Welcome to reality.

The person is a "professional" breeder and trainer of Golden Retrievers that is a member of another forum I belong to.  I posted photos of my white Boxer son, and someone posted that they had never seen one.  So I posted again a few facts about them, such as some breeders cull them at birth, and that I thought this practice was irresponsible.  This did not go over well with the breeder lady.

I won't post a link to the discussion, because I am not sure it is allowed to link to another forum.  The other forum is not dog related.  Needless to say, I was given my first rude wake up call.  It actually makes me even more proud of my white Boxer.  I truly hope that someday the AKC pulls its head out, and changes the breed standard for Boxers.  As part of my rebuttal, I posted the breed standard for Bulldogs and Boxers and pointed out how white Bulldogs are acceptable but white Boxers are not.  Even though Boxers got their genes from Bulldogs.  What a mad world we live in.

 

[Barbs2Ks]

When I have visited breeder websites, most have a white boxer friendly notation on them.  Didn't know that anyone would consider culling them anymore.

 

[choas2k]

I am sorry you encountered that situation, but remember knowledge is power and power is what educates people!!  You know how I feel about Siruis.....he is absolutely perfect in everyway!!!

 

[AshleysMom]

How totally rude! I am guessing that the person in question does not know the possiblities invovled in breeding mixed color dogs such as Boxers. All I can say is..they don't deserve a response, as its apparent how ignoragnt they are, and it would probably just become a war of words with someone who "thinks" they know our dogs....SHEEESH

 

[My_Harleigh]

When I was little I accidently witnessed a farmer breeder drowning white pups because they were "worthless". I don't know what breed it was as I was little and didn't know. But regardless, every pup deserves to live happily ever after.

Question....what is culled? I have never heard that word before. I mean I can guess what it means, but why is it called that?

 

[SiriusDad]

I was under the impression that white Boxers are still culled by some breeders.  If I am wrong, maybe someone could educate me.  In the future I will try not to bring it up unless someone mentions it to me.  No use in starting a riot if the practice is outdated.  I will focus more on how white Boxers are just as loveable, and fun as other Boxers even though a small percentage of them are born deaf.  Hell, if people can love Dalmations and Bulldogs that are born with the possibility of being deaf, why not boxers?  : )

This breeder lady tried to tell me white Boxers are more prone to blindness and have compromised immune systems too.  What a mess she must be.

 

[Newcastle]

There are still some Boxer breeders who cull whites, but they get fewer and farther between every day.  The Golden breeder obviously got her information about white Boxers many decades ago and never bothered to consider that with advances in our knowledge of genetics and disease, there might just have been a change in the prevailing attitude toward whites.  For pity's sake, the ABC started allowing breeders to place whites 20-some years ago, and to offer limited registration on them in 2004.  (The other possibility is that she's friends with a few of the 'hold outs' who still insist that whites are more prone to disease and deformity in addition to deafness, despite the reams of evidence and experience to the contrary.)

(You might not want to bring Dalmatians into it; the Dal Club of America recommends culling deaf puppies.)

Question....what is culled? I have never heard that word before. I mean I can guess what it means, but why is it called that?

Culling in general means "picking out" - common use is like culling from a herd (cattle).  Technically culling is practiced whenever a puppy is delegated as a non-breeding prospect - it's culled from the future gene pool - but most of the time people mean killing when they say culling.

 

[My_Harleigh]

Now why isn't that considered abuse or murder? Arrest those SOBs and lock them up.  I just don't get this world anymore.

 

[OdinsDad]

How totally rude! I am guessing that the person in question does not know the possiblities invovled in breeding mixed color dogs such as Boxers.

I accidently witnessed a farmer breeder drowning white pups because they were "worthless".

Obviously these breeders don't know the true value of White Boxers... you can sell them at double-price as the "rare snow-white Boxer".  :lol:

 

[Newcastle]

I understand your frustration, but what's the difference between killing a puppy because you believe it will have lifelong health problems, and killing an adult dog because there's no room for it in the shelter?  (Or, if you're PETA, killing it because it's better off dead than "enslaved" by humans.  :roll:  )  

Drowning puppies in a river is probably subject to welfare if not cruelty laws, but (for example) a pentobarbitol injection is an acceptable method of killing animals.  Culling puppies based on color in this breed is misguided, certainly, but if done in a manner consistent with standard husbandry practices, there's no basis for legal action.  Education is the key, here, and sometimes a loss of sales will make an impact (even if they're looking for a fawn or brindle, if enough people don't buy from breeders because they kill their whites - and tell them that's the reason - they may start to rethink their policies; if not about whites, at least about performing breedings that are likely to produce them).

 

[My_Harleigh]

[quote="Newcastle\";p=\"107468":2a5awz1p]I understand your frustration, but what's the difference between killing a puppy because you believe it will have lifelong health problems, and killing an adult dog because there's no room for it in the shelter?

 

[AshleysMom]

LOL Odins Dad...I think those "rare white and Rare BLACK boxers" should get these folks tons of money!!!
Ginger..as sad as it sounds maybe 10-15 years ago..if you breed your show bitch with a reputible breeder, they would contract you to take the pup and drop it in water so it never took its first breath..( some are born without the amniotic sac intact though..and comes out making this pitifull cry.. horrific to think of! ) All you could do then was pray the sac didn't tear..and it seemed a bit less cruel if the pup never breathed..but you know..I worked with my people, and they were white boxer friendly..and didn't have to do this..but as Jennifer stated..there are methods that people believe are less "animalistic" to put a white down.
The fact though is kinda two fold..we do breed for color these days ( and need to accept that we may get a white on occasion, but have had alot better success with trying to eliminate full whites..not that they are not LOVEBUGS!! I had two..and they were the sweetest pups!)but you are correct it IS impossible to tell if your pup will be deaf( but there are health issues that won't show up for years too..a VERY tough call for breeders)
I know..so, so sad, and I am glad I don't have to make a decision like this....EVER again!! GRRR..what a horrible subject..makes me mad to think how archaic life really is

 

[SiriusDad]

Well, the subject of culling white puppies and euthanizing adult dogs are two different things.  I don't like the fact that dogs have to be put to sleep because suitable homes can't be found for them.  This is why I support spay and neuter clauses in purchase contracts, and I have all my pets spayed or neutered before they can breed.

I do agree that white Boxers should not be bred.  Statistically, such a breeding will produce more deaf puppies than breeding two colored boxers.  And you still get beautiful white puppies when you breed two colored boxers, so there is no reason to breed whites.  If breeding whites was a common practice, more deaf dogs would be born, and it would lead to most breeders culling the deaf dogs.  I had no idea this is how Dalmation breeders operated.  I think what infuriates me most, is knowing that some breeders kill all the white puppies before knowing whether they are hearing or not.  This is irresponsible breeding just as much as breeding two whites is irresponsible breeding, in my opinion.

Can someone with knowledge on the subject, explain why white Bulldogs are allowed in the show ring by the AKC even though they carry the same Piebald gene that Boxers carry?  This seems to me to be the master inconsistency in the whole mess.  I understand a little about the history of the breed, and how white Boxers were more easily spotted in wartime work.  But we are way past those days, and it seems to me that the AKC is slow to change and this is still causing some to kill healthy white Boxers.

It's sad, but the next best step would be to have the AKC recognize white Boxers as show dogs, which would lead to breeders not killing them until they could determine if they were deaf or not.  It's not a good solution, but it's the lesser of two evils.

 

[Ky_IsisnOnyxsMama]

my ****** is deaf shhh dont tell her...but we still love her just the same and shes NO different than any other white boxer..or health wise..no different than my lab...shes just fine !!! but i DO understand that SOME have issues but uhmm we have ALOT of whiteys on this forum and they have no more issues than any other boxer :?

and we already love Siruis

 

[AshleysMom]

I wholeheartedly agree Ky..our white boxer friends on here deserved life just like all the rest..Isis..well she is our superstar!!
My post ( hopefully not taken in a bad way! ) was to let people know how some breeders are..and the strict nature that dictated the Boxer world many years ago..I am SO glad this has gone mostly to the wayside!!
Sirus..your a sweetie..don't let ANYONE tell you different!

 

[lentylka1]

I can't get into this discussion or my blood pressure will go way up!

 

[Newcastle]

Well, the subject of culling white puppies and euthanizing adult dogs are two different things.  I don't like the fact that dogs have to be put to sleep because suitable homes can't be found for them.

You know, I edited that and lost the point of the question.  In both cases, though, the person doing the killing believes they are doing the kindest thing for the animal - breeders don't kill white puppies for the fun of it; they honestly believe the puppy will have problems for life.  Shelter workers believe that the dogs won't find homes.  They're both wrong, in most cases, but they're not usually acting out of malice.  

I think what infuriates me most, is knowing that some breeders kill all the white puppies before knowing whether they are hearing or not.

Again, though, in most cases this is not as much related to deafness as to a belief that white Boxers in general are doomed to a lifetime of misery.  I know a breeder who will swear until her dying day that every white puppy she produced was diseased or malformed; she doesn't breed much these days and tries to avoid producing white puppies, so it's not a big issue with her, but she had some real problems in the past and so in her view, killing whites at birth is an act of kindness.

Can someone with knowledge on the subject, explain why white Bulldogs are allowed in the show ring by the AKC even though they carry the same Piebald gene that Boxers carry?  This seems to me to be the master inconsistency in the whole mess.

Because the Bulldog Club of America chooses to allow them in the show ring.  Breed standards are not set by the AKC; they are set by the parent clubs.  From what I've read, white Bulldogs don't seem to have the same rate of deafness as white Boxers, either; I'm not sure about Bulldog history but my understanding is that white was always an accepted color - it may be that they were able to select against deafness in the early days of the breed, because they kept their whites, while Boxer breeders weren't aware of the issue because of the restrictions on keeping white puppies.

It's sad, but the next best step would be to have the AKC recognize white Boxers as show dogs, which would lead to breeders not killing them until they could determine if they were deaf or not.  It's not a good solution, but it's the lesser of two evils.

It's probably harder to kill a five- or six-week old puppy than a five-minute old one, really.  But it doesn't need to be that dramatic; change is happening and will continue to do so, as more currently-educated people join the ranks of Boxer Club members and more of the 'hold outs' retire from them.  Allowing limited registration and sale was a major step - not enough of one for many, but a significant change overall.  The next step will be affording whites equal treatment to their colored pet littermates; some breeders are practicing civil disobedience and doing this already, but the "official" stamp of approval is a few years in the future yet.  In the mean time, getting whites involved in obedience, agility, tracking, herding, service work, therapy work - everything except conformation, in other words - has and will continue to demonstrate the fact that aside from the deafness and the pain job, they're just the same as fawn and brindle non-show, non-breeding Boxers.

 

[samsonsmom]

You know, I had never seen a White Boxer til I moved to Ireland, first one I saw also had a tail and I was blown away...Yea, back then I was pretty ignorant  It's sad that there are some breeders do still practice culling, we can hope there will come a day when having a White puppy in your litter is not considered a bad thing...

 

[Sadiesmomma]

Well, the Subject to this thread is a great one to get people to read it!  :wink:  

Anyway, I know that some breeders do cull whites still...a breeder in my town said, that white boxers are a result of inbreeding  :roll: WOW, she is just a bit misinformed or she just kills them and doesn't say anything about it. It's so sad.

I agree Ky, some whites have health issues some don't...JUST like brindles and fawns..some have health issues some don't.

And yes, Siruis is SUCH a cutie!

 

[Alicia]

[quote="OdinsDad\";p=\"107467":rxkfyfqq]
Obviously these breeders don't know the true value of White Boxers... you can sell them at double-price as the "rare snow-white Boxer".