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This post is actually in response to the Tamar Geller thread, but it seemed to need a new heading.

When we adopted our last dog, 18 years ago, I relied on an very outdated book on dog training (probably circa 1970 or earlier)  that advocated negative methods.  One of those, that worked like a charm and with seemingly little negative side-effects, was to bring your knee up when the dog jumped on you.  Zelda learned very early on not to jump on people, though she did sometimes find it hard to reel in her enthusiasm when we had been gone for a couple of days and would "semi-jump" on us.  (Hard to explain!)

I'm not doing the "knee-up" with Atticus, as I really am committed to the idea of positive reinforcement.  But I am curious as to why this particular correction is  considered so terribly negative.  Having said that, there are times when I DO want Atticus to just go all out in expressing his boundless Boxer joy by jumping and "hugging" us when he sees us after a more-than-a-few-hours absence, and understand it's much less likely that he will do that if we use the "knee up" to correct him.  The problem I'm having is, I guess, more a problem with disciplining MYSELF than him.  Since I've ruled out the "knee-up," and since I don't want to just turn my back on him when he's excited to see me after a more-than-few-hours absence, I'm afraid that he's getting the idea that it's okay to jump up on people, and I hate dogs, especially large ones, who do that!   Well,  I don't hate the dogs, actually.  I hate their OWNERS for not training them better.  I have a new friend who has two HUMONGOUS dogs who jump all over me the entire time I'm at her house.  I hate going to her house for this reason, and I sure don't want people to feel that way about coming to my home.

Any input on this dilemma would be appreciated.
 

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When Buck was younger, we had a lot of issues with the jumping on people. Everything we tried, did not work, including the knee into the chest..It didn't even phase him. What worked best was to actually put the dogs outside when visitors came over, then let them in, Tia was always fine, and for some reason Buck did better doing that. Oh sure he was still trying to get up close and personal, but he responded better to my commands. Odd, but it worked.. Now Angel is also a jumper, so what I have done with her, if she jumps on me and I haven't asked her to, she gets a stern "uh uh" and a finger pointed at her. Sometimes if I'm walking away, she will try to jump on my back, same thing, slowly it's starting to work and I use the same thing when visitors come over...If I invite her to jump up on my, I just pat my chest and that's all it takes...

When I have been gone for awhile, both Samson & Angel are always really excited to see me, I try to keep my welcome very low key, until they calm down, it's hard tho to resist the impulse to just get as excited as them..I wait about 5 minutes or so, til they have calmed down some, then call them both to me and give them some hugs...I don't think you are sending mixed messages by saying it's ok sometimes to play rough, jump etc, I've always done that with mine and once they understood the boundaries they were fine, it just takes a bit of work..Boxers are smart, they catch on pretty fast....
 

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I don't think a knee in the chest is considered more "terribly negative" than any other physical correction, and certainly less so than some.  (It does have the potential to cause physical damage, as well.)  The underlying concern is the whole philosophy behind these kinds of techniques - now that we understand how dogs learn, now that we know the old "alpha wolf" theory is a bunch of hogwash, many trainers no longer see a need (or a desire!) to use force to scare their dogs into submission.  There are safer, more effective ways to train that are far more clear to the dog and don't run the risk of ruining the relationship.

I understand about wanting that boundless joy - I love it, too. :)  What you need to do is, as Willow mentioned, set and teach boundaries and guidelines for this behavior.  For example, it's OK to jump on you when your arms are empty; it's not OK to jump on you when you have something in your arms.  It's OK to jump on you, but it's not OK to jump on anyone else.  (What will make it much easier is to attach jumping to a cue - Evie loves to jump up and hook her front legs over my shoulders, so that I grab and hold her.  After a few bloody lips from her doing such when I was bending down to pet her ;), she's figured out that she can only do what when I say, "Evie, up!" and hold my arms out.)
 

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As Newcastle stated (excellent show btw), is that we have learned more about the way dogs learn and as such have found that , aside from the fact that training with more physical methods can be potentially harmful for the dogs health, they can be harmful to the relationship as well.  There are more positive methods that work faster and easier and tend to stick with the dog faster than a negative experience.

I teach my clients to attach a cue to jumping and teaching their dog when jumping is ok.  I don't allow any dog to jump on me without my first inviting it.  

Flipping, kneeing, and choking out are all ways to intimidate, scare, and hurt our dogs into doing what we want NOW.  We have learned that dogs want to make us happy and do what we want.  We have also learned that dogs learn much the same as children and that fiding the right gentle technique for each dog respectively is the best way to train them.  As well, we have learned that aking the time to train the dog and utilizing our patience to work it out has a higher payoff for the dog owner relationship.  Play is a great way to train any dog and using it in conjunction with treats and praise is a wonderful way to get the job done.

I'll stop rambling now...Great question and post!!!

Liz and Lilly
 

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We have also learned that dogs learn much the same as children
This is a very good point.  I wonder if the following would work: "If you wouldn't do it to teach a two-year-old, don't do it to train a dog."  Hm - I'll have to think on that one....
 

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Thats the exact philosophy I tend to use with my clients...

Again, excellent show Newcastle!!!

Liz and Lilly
 

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Just another idea for cues...we have taught Abby that when one squats down on a knee, she can "hug." She's not allowed otherwise. That is her invitation. Our vet laughed because she was nice and calm and after he examined her, he got down on his knee to pet her while we chatted...she got all excited and hugged him. He said, "still jumping, huh?" I said, actually, you just invited her to do that. He thought that was great as she hadn't tried to jump at all while he was standing. It works well most of the time and our friends who visit all are involved with it too which helps a lot...so once she calms down, if they want, they can squat down. I have started taking that one step further in the past few months and tapping my shoulders and saying "Love!" as an invitation. It works when she is calm but when she's excited about me coming home or waking up or something, she jumps as soon as I squat.
 
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