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Discussion Starter #1
I would like to know why you show people think less of a person and that their dogs are not up to par if they don't prance their dog around a ring just so other people who are partial to what they like including color tell you who they think is the best.  I have been around shows , my sister shows whippets. I find you people snooty, mean and frankly I hate being around people like that. I would much rather spend my time training the boxer for what he was ment for like obedience so they can be a good companion, protection so they will know the right way to protect thier family, and agility so they get to use thier god given athletic ability.  For you to assume that someones dogs do not meet the breed standered just cause they choose not to show them is wrong. I am SICK of hearing that if you don't show you shouldn't breed! and if you don't show your not trying to better the breed.  I am going to breed my dogs when they have had all the health tests done to ensure they only pass on the healthiest genes. They do have some faults, but I try to correct that with a mate that does not have the same fault. Don't tell me that every dog that a show breeder breeds is the perfect boxer because we all know their is always something to improve on. If shows were really accurate in picking the best dog or dogs then we would have the same boxers win every time, but we don't because it is really what the judge's picture of the perfect dog he has in his head . Therefore we get different dogs that win even when all the judges have studied the same standard.  As long as someone is concerned with the health first and then keeping them looking like boxers with the right temerments, Than they have as much if not more right to breed.   Personally I think the show breeders have gotten away from what boxers were in the begining.  Just look at some of the show boxers in europe they look much better in my opinion. But that's just what it is My opinion, and everyone has a right to have their own. So STOP bashing people for going in a different direction that you . It's not like you developed the boxer.  Thanks but I don't need or want a reply I just had to get that off my chest. :wink:
 
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Take a deep breath. Take a moment to reflect. Now tell us how you really feel.    8O

hahaha, I think that's kind of funny. When I read the breeders I do so with a grain of salt because I know/hope they are talking about show/pedigreed dogs. They should meet a certain standard. I know I'll never breed for anything other than companionship. If that means my dogs might not be considered an official boxer, then so be it. The difference is, I won't ever try to pass it off as such. That's where you'll run into problems for prolonging the breed. It is a great dog.

I have a feeling you'll get quite a few replies (opinions) on this. Good subject. :!:
 

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I dont think less of a person. I dont judge anyone PERSONALLY - just if someone is breeding, they should have a well thought out plan, and a goal.

In one sentence, you say dont judge and dont condemn... but you say the Euro dogs are better, and that show breeders are all snooty.

Let me ask, what color are the dogs you are breeding, or planning on breeding?

As well, some breeders argue that the Euro dogs are not representing the breed accurately - many breeders feel they are overdone.  Many UK and AU dogs are lovely as are many US lines and dogs.

I dont condemn people.. I condemn their actions and irresponsibility.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Sorry I left out the word Most, as there are a few nice show breeders like my sister. I am only talking about he ones who try to force their opinion on the rest of us like we know nothing just cause we don't show, So if you are not one of them I apologize.
Yes I said that, and I also said in MY OPINION they are better, see every one is entitled to their own. I don't say if you don't agree with me you shouldn't breed the kind you like.
I have one classic golden brindle male who I will be breeding with my classic deep fawn female. That is what I like so that is what I am breeding for not to mention there is no chance of having any white or mismarked puppies. You may not do this but I get very upset when I see show breeders mate two flashy dogs to get a flashy show dog for themselves when the know full well that they will also produce the substandard and unwanted white and mismarked pups. If what most of them say is true and they only breed to produce pups that better the breed than this would be a lie!
And I also think people planning to breed should be responsible too, I say I am planning to breed but if one of their test comes out badly I will not breed them!  The only point I am trying to make is show people should not assume that all breeders that do not show are irresponsible! We just don't want to! Just like you did not want me to assume you are a snooty jerk just because you show.
 

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I dont care if people think Im a snooty jerk. People who know me, and have met us know otherwise. I go out of my way to help people who want to do things the right way, and be ethical.

I have issues with people breeding for profit, and breeding without having assistance in evaluating dogs prior to breeding. (Which is what showing does essentially - helps you get a realistic idea of how your dogs can compete, and how correct they are re: breed standard)

Breeding a plain for the sake of breeding a plain is also not a great idea. You breed two dogs who are the best suited for each other in conformation and pedigree. (Health and temperament are an obvious must) But, if the two best dogs are flashy, then so be it.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
So you are saying it is perfectly acceptable to breed dogs that will litter the boxer population with more unwanted and and unbreedable boxers just to get what you want,a perfect show dog for you. Sounds Irreasponsible to Me!
So you are assuming again that I am breeding for profit because of what ? because I don't care to show . I have two dogs, that I am spending large amounts of money on to get tested not to mention the best food and preventitives available. How can I be making a profit when I have already spent enough money on them to cover the profit for two litters and I don't think females should have anymore litters than that.
I don't need assistance from anyone else ,I have a spent a lot of time learning how to evalutate for myself, again you assume I know nothing about the breed cause I don't show.
And Again you assume I am breeding color for color when you do not know or care to find out that I looked for certain things when I purchsed my dogs including the how they would compliment each others faults.You did not ask me about that you only asked what color I was planning on breeding assuming I was trying to breed a non-standard color because I don't show , and that is what I told you about , the reason I choose dogs of that color. I think breeding responsibly also includes breeding to produce all acceptable puppies that way none of the puppies whould be considered to be against the standard. And by pedigree do you mean a champion bloodline because we both know champions can produce not champion offspring. And All champions have had to come from somewhere not all boxers were born champions. Since I am not trying to breed show dogs I don't think I need champions just healthy , good representitives of the breed who will produce the like. Dogs were not created to be show dogs they were created to be helpers and companions not to help you look good cause you breed or own the most perfect looking boxer ever ,by the way unless you take no monitary compensation for your efforts you are also showing and breeding for profit!
Who are you to tell people how wrong and unethical they are . Unless someone asks for your opinion in a certain topic than keep it to yourself. When the girl asked about doggie diapers that was what she wanted to know about NOT that her friend should get her dog fixxed. Until Every show breeder stops breeding imperfect dogs, color included they have NO right to tell everyone else what to do. It seems more like you are trying to find all the imperfections in other breeders when you should be worring about your imperfections, OH but that's right your perfect., and the right way and ethical way is always YOUR way isn't it? I know how I will be breeding is very Ethical and right because all of my boxers puppies will be healthy , smart and useful and also look the way boxers should look and will go to homes that treat them as such. If you can think of any other stupid questions like am I breeding my dogs just to get colored haws? Let me know :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Sorry I wasn't trying to call anyone names. I was just telling people how I feel about mean show people. Like I said there are some good ones like my sister. and I also said she wouldn't want me to think she is one because she is a show person. I didn't say she or he was one. She is the one who said she don't care if she is one. I didn't put her in that catagory . She did.
The whole reason I started this thread was to let some people know to stop bashing people for not showing. And stop giving advice that was not asked of them. That's all.
 

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OK.. someones a little sensitive.

But.. its OK for you to "litter the boxer population with more unwanted and and unbreedable boxers just to get what you want" even though you dont show?

I GLADLY and proudly breed UNBREEDABLE DOGS. Every pet I place is unbreedable. I dont allow it. Not every boxer should be bred.

And, your one statement said enough for me to finalize my opinion of you. "I don't need assistance from anyone else ,I have a spent a lot of time learning how to evalutate for myself" - Well.. at least you ADMIT that you think you know it all. Which I can assure you, you really dont.
But, the difference is, most breeders ADMIT they have much to learn, and then set about learning it.

This forum is all about opinions, whether asked for or not. So your, "Unless someone asks for your opinion in a certain topic than keep it to yourself" wont fly with me. Im entitled.. just like you are entitled to your opinion about show people being snobs...

Oh well... If thats how and why you feel that way,  I'll stay being a snob thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
What I meant exactly about unwanted and unbreedable is dogs that would hurt future lines of boxers like the white deaf gene. Most show people put them down so much it's hard to even find them homes because people have heard their bad reputation and people don't want to own a dog that is considered unacceptable. But they keep producing  them .Again why produce dogs that are going to be unwanted by the general population. I was not saying every dog I will breed, which won't be many , should be bred. I proudly will breed my pet quality pups too.
I do know everything their is to know about boxers conformation, And I don't need assistance evaluating my dogs . I know what I am looking for in my dogs.If you ask a boxer judge at a show if she thinks she knows everything about them she might lie and say no but she does because she has studied the standard just like all of us and has a clear picture in her mind of what she is looking for. I may need some knowledge in breeding . By the way I have a show breeder that I take advice from, but she is not like most show people. She is helping me with my goal not trying to make me want what she wants, and she only gives it when I ask for it.
I thought in a forum you were supposed to stay on the subject of the original thread but what I saw going on was people getting jumped on because their friends dog wasn't fixed. I'm sorry but she has no business telling her friend what to do , She could suggest it but you have no idea what kind of quality her dog is . Mabey she is a show dog or is titled in another way , It does not even matter cause it wasn't relavent to the question asked. And I saw someone being put down for breeding Reverse brindle that appear black. He was not asking for anyones opinion he just wanted to let people know that there are pure bred boxers that are black, at least in appearance. He didn't care what you thought about his dogs or breeding but you told him anyway.
I started this to let people know my opinion so you were welcome to give yours , I wasn't trying to get an opinion on you This had nothing to do with you until you responded trying to discredit me in some way . It's like you thought I was talking directly to you , So your either very vain or you got upset with it because it hit close to home . Either way I don' t know you and you may have never done anything I was saying but I still don't have an opinion of you cause I don't need one . These replys are not just for the sake of debating with you they are for all the people who may read this and know someone shares there views. And if no one who reads this agrees at least I know I tried.
Why do you keep calling yourself names? I never said anything to you personally and you could of lumped yourself in with the nice show people I know but you assumed I thought you were one of the mean ones, when I do not know you. For all I know you are one of the good ones. And for assuming that I thought poorly of you means you are a little sensitive too. :wink:  Aren't we all a little sensitive when you think someone is putting you down or trying to make you look bad?
 

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I must reply to this in segments - anyone who EVER may need to choose a breeder MUST read this exchange.

Toledo Boxers wrote:
What I meant exactly about unwanted and unbreedable is dogs that would hurt future lines of boxers like the white deaf gene. Most show people put them down so much it's hard to even find them homes because people have heard their bad reputation and people don't want to own a dog that is considered unacceptable.

CinemaBoxers replies:
Wrong. The deaf white gene is only present in whites. Whites are inevitable, and no... they are not UNdesirable as pets AT ALL. I get many emails seeking whites, and NO, most show breeders DO NOT put them down anymore. Nowadays, you see MANY 'White Friendly" breeder sites - more are white friendly than NOT. And no.. whites do not have bad reputations. Most breeders make it VERY clear that they make WONDERFUL pets, but should simply never be bred.  Only people like yourself perpetuate these myths.

Toledo Boxers wrote:
I was not saying every dog I will breed, which won't be many , should be bred. I proudly will breed my pet quality pups too.

Cinema Boxers replies:
Bad bad. Pets are pets for a reason, and should NOT BE BRED. The animals quality and pedigree along with temperament and health determine whether a dog should or should not be bred. I DO NOT ALLOW my pets to be bred, and, I let them live out a long healthy life spayed and neutered, where they will do nothing but be wonderful companions.

Toledo Boxers wrote:
I do know everything their is to know about boxers conformation, And I don't need assistance evaluating my dogs . I know what I am looking for in my dogs.

Cinema Boxers wrote:
This is where potential boxer buyers should read closely.
She breeds according to her OWN standards, and not the breed standard.
And ADMITTEDLY thinks she knows all there is to know about Boxer conformation. I bet this person could NOT accurately identify accurate conformation faults in any dog - especially their own. A REPUTABLE BREEDER CONTINUES TO LEARN CONSTANTLY. They never stop learning, for there are always things TO BE LEARNED.

Toledo Boxers wrote:
If you ask a boxer judge at a show if she thinks she knows everything about them she might lie and say no but she does because she has studied the standard just like all of us and has a clear picture in her mind of what she is looking for.

CinemaBoxers replies:
No.. this means they have read the standard and interpret it as best they can. This doesnt always mean they UNDERSTAND it, or interpret it correctly. This just means they are evaluating dogs as compared to the breed standard. Judges always continue to learn as well - at least good ones do. That is why many breed clubs hold seminars, and educational conferences for judges on show weekends.

Toledo Boxers wrote:
I may need some knowledge in breeding . By the way I have a show breeder that I take advice from, but she is not like most show people. She is helping me with my goal not trying to make me want what she wants, and she only gives it when I ask for it.

Cinema Boxers replies:
Again, show breeders are only as good as their mentors and what they have learned. A show breeder who has quit learning is no better to buy from than any BYB.

Toledo Boxers wrote:
I thought in a forum you were supposed to stay on the subject of the original thread but what I saw going on was people getting jumped on because their friends dog wasn't fixed.

Cinema Boxers replies:
We are on the original topic... you said you didnt show, and said show breeders were snooty. We are discussing this.

Toledo Boxers wrote:
I'm sorry but she has no business telling her friend what to do , She could suggest it but you have no idea what kind of quality her dog is . Mabey she is a show dog or is titled in another way , It does not even matter cause it wasn't relavent to the question asked.

Cinema Boxers replies:
Yes... we are allowed to discuss and share opinions. This means on any topic, not just the ones we agree with.

Toledo Boxers wrote:
And I saw someone being put down for breeding Reverse brindle that appear black. He was not asking for anyones opinion he just wanted to let people know that there are pure bred boxers that are black, at least in appearance. He didn't care what you thought about his dogs or breeding but you told him anyway.

Cinema Boxers replies:
Im allowed to also point out when someone is breeding unethically, or breeding for the sake of selling pups as a novelty. Black boxers are not acceptable, and I would hate to see someone buy a dog from a breeder who is NOT breeding ethically. And no.. before you assume.. I dont have anything TO sell, nor do I ever advertise pups on any other sites. We usually have a waiting list, and very RARELY have any pups available.

Toledo Boxers wrote:
I started this to let people know my opinion so you were welcome to give yours , I wasn't trying to get an opinion on you This had nothing to do with you until you responded trying to discredit me in some way .

Cinema Boxers replies:
No.. you just said we were all snooty, and basically said we shouldnt voice our opinions.

Toledo Boxers wrote:
It's like you thought I was talking directly to you , So your either very vain or you got upset with it because it hit close to home . Either way I don' t know you and you may have never done anything I was saying but I still don't have an opinion of you cause I don't need one . These replys are not just for the sake of debating with you they are for all the people who may read this and know someone shares there views. And if no one who reads this agrees at least I know I tried.
Why do you keep calling yourself names? I never said anything to you personally and you could of lumped yourself in with the nice show people I know but you assumed I thought you were one of the mean ones, when I do not know you. For all I know you are one of the good ones.

Cinema Boxers replies:
Um.. all I got for this one is.. Well, OK.

Toledo Boxers wrote:
And for assuming that I thought poorly of you means you are a little sensitive too.   Aren't we all a little sensitive when you think someone is putting you down or trying to make you look bad

Cinema Boxers replies:
I personally dont care what anyone thinks of me. I care about my breed, and care about breed education.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
White boxers are not inevatable! You can choose to breed combinations that will not produce white boxers.  I already said that the deaf gene was in white boxers , that's why I said WHITE deaf gene. The boxer standard says they are undesirable so why would you debate that? How many email have you gotten requesting a deaf white boxer? Just because you have been lucky not to get any yet, if you have been, doesn't mean you won't in the future.  I don't perpetuate any myths, I have to disspell them when I am out with my sister who has two white boxers she rescued and we have to hear crap from people who don't know the truth about them. I was telling what others I have encountered think not what I think.

And how is the next paragraph Bad bad when I said the exact same thing you did, I even used your same words , so you just told yourself you were bad. Sorry but that is funny!

Yes, there are always things to be learned but not about the standard. You know what it says or you don't . Plain and simple.

Would you please stop putting in words I didn't type? I didn't say I have my own standard . I said I know what I am looking for and that is a dog that closely fits the boxer standard.

If judges are allowed to interperet the standard and evaluate dogs . Why is it so wrong for anyone else too? All you need to do is take the time to  learn the standard ,look at dogs that have the correct type and incorrect type  and compare against them.

I wrote what I saw was.......and that is why I started this thread. I didn' t say you were off the topic on this one.

Are you reading all my words or just skimming? Cause you seem to miss a lot of important ones.

You just said black boxers are not acceptable because the standard says so , but it also says that about whites and you still produce them.

Voice your opinion all you want. I just said stay on the topic and just to clarify , not this topic!

Well I care what people think of me! Nobody likes to be thought badly of.

I know we will never agree on a lot of things but we both agree that what we care about the most is our dogs. I want all boxers to be health tested before anyone breeds them and they should have the right temperment and of course be as close to the standard as possible so future boxers look like boxers.

I will most likely never show , I am just not interested in it. That has nothing to do with the fact that i still want to preserve beautiful healthy boxers for the future, that is why I go by the standard .
 

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Sorry, I just can't keep silent on this one!

I realize, Toledo, that you are very anti-show-breeder, so this may be a wasted effort, but others who are more open may learn something.  There are just some inconsistencies, some misinformation, and some downright contradictions that need to be addressed.

I am SICK of hearing that if you don't show you shouldn't breed! and if you don't show your not trying to better the breed.
I rarely hear that, myself.  What I hear is that you don't *have your dogs objectively evaluated*, you're either not concerned about the standard or likely to fall victim to kennel blindness.  Even the best breeders know they cannot always be objective about their own dogs.

you assume I am breeding color for color
No, you *said* that's what you were doing:

I have one classic golden brindle male who I will be breeding with my classic deep fawn female. That is what I like so that is what I am breeding for
On breeding for profit:
I have two dogs, that I am spending large amounts of money on to get tested not to mention the best food and preventitives available. How can I be making a profit when I have already spent enough money on them to cover the profit for two litters
And then:
by the way unless you take no monitary compensation for your efforts you are also showing and breeding for profit!
So which is it?  Are you breeding for protfit, or not?  (Or do you give your puppies away for free?)

On white Boxers:
I get very upset when I see show breeders mate two flashy dogs to get a flashy show dog for themselves when the know full well that they will also produce the substandard and unwanted white and mismarked pups.
So you are saying it is perfectly acceptable to breed dogs that will litter the boxer population with more unwanted and and unbreedable boxers just to get what you want,a perfect show dog for you.
What I meant exactly about unwanted and unbreedable is dogs that would hurt future lines of boxers like the white deaf gene. Most show people put them down so much it's hard to even find them homes because people have heard their bad reputation and people don't want to own a dog that is considered unacceptable.
and then:
Dogs were not created to be show dogs they were created to be helpers and companions
And white Boxers are not able to be helpers and companions?  A large number of white Boxers are currently employed as police or service dogs.  Just because a Boxer cannot be shown doesn't mean they don't have a right to live - would you get rid of all cryptorchids, as well?  No, you'd just remove them from the breeding population and let them spend their days as companions, helpers, performance dogs, etc.  

I do want to reiterate that most show people *do not* put down whites, as Paula noted.  As far as them being unwanted - hogwash.  Whites of either sex are the second-most-requested Boxer puppies in many if not most areas (and I've personally gotten two requests for deaf whites).

You just said black boxers are not acceptable because the standard says so , but it also says that about whites and you still produce them.
Black Boxers are not acceptable because they are a genetic impossiblity; Boxers do not carry the gene for black coat color.  

And Paula is right, this one statement is quite telling:
I do know everything their is to know about boxers conformation,

there are always things to be learned but not about the standard. You know what it says or you don't .
Knowing what the standard says is entirely different from knowing everything there is to know about a Boxer's conformation.  There is continual debate about the finer points of the standard among true students of the breed.  Since you know everything there is to know, perhaps you can put exact numbers to these issues for us so that we no longer have to debate them:

How high should the hocks be?
What is the correct ratio of eye size to head, so that they are "generous" but "not too small"?  The depth ratio so that they are "not too protruding, or too deepset"?  
How much of rise of skull is the ideal?  
How much curve is permitted in the upper line of incisors?
How long should the neck be?
What is the ideal shoulder layback?
What is the ideal stifle angle?

There are more, of course, but I'll leave it at that for now.  I'm looking forward to your answers; it will be a relief not to have to rely on individual opinions and interpretations anymore!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
First of all I am not anti-show I am anti-rude show people.
What I meant by color for color is I won't only breed for color I also have the health ,temperment and standard in mind.She asked me what color I plan to breed and I told her And I said I will breed them cause I like those colors. I didn't say I only breed for color. And I don't have a kennel I have two dogs.
In case you didn't notice I was turning the profit question around on her.
Asking if she got any money for what she was doing because she assumed I was doing it for profit. And no I have to charge something for my pups so they will go to good homes. That is not breeding for profit if what you charge doesn't even cover the cost of what you have already spent.
As far as white boxers are concerned, I'm glad you feel that way about them. as far as producing them I never will, why would I want to bring a handicap puppy into this world. And the request for them is amazing, I commend those people for being willing to take in handicap dogs .Since so many breeder like to tell everone else what is ethical or not. I believe producing handicap dogs is unethical.

No there is no gene for black but there are reverse brindle that appear black, so I should have said Black Brindle boxers.

ok let me say it again in different words. I know what the boxer standard states. No one will ever agree on all the little fine points like that so why debate them.  The things that the boxer standard states are to make sure boxers continue to look like boxers.
Things like an exact stifle angle are not important. as long as they are well angulated and not over angulated the dog is within the standard. It is more about proportion. Boxers have never been hurt before by not having these exact numbers so why does it matter now. What if I perfer one height of hock and you prefer another. It is something that is left up to opinion in the standard, so leave it that . Preferance. You don't have to rely on individual opinion unless it's your own. You may accept others opinions but you don't have to rely on them.
 

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quote from Toledo boxer---
As far as white boxers are concerned, I'm glad you feel that way about them. as far as producing them I never will, why would I want to bring a handicap puppy into this world. And the request for them is amazing, I commend those people for being willing to take in handicap dogs .Since so many breeder like to tell everone else what is ethical or not. I believe producing handicap dogs is unethical.
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Excuse me!!I wasn't aware that every white boxer was handicapped..Where in the world did you come up with that? Also how can you know you won't produce them? Breeding a plain fawn to a plain fawn doesn't mean you will not end up with any whites..I'm not a breeder, I admit, but that's just common sense. Are you going to tell me in both your boxers pedigrees, back like 6 generations, there are NO white boxers? Like I said, I'm not a breeder, so any breeders can tell me if I'm wrong abt this.. Sorry, I've been reading this fued, which started I'm not sure why & I finally had to put my 2cents in..
 

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First of all I am not anti-show I am anti-rude show people.
If that were truly the case, your first post would have read "I would like to know why you rude people think less of a person....I find you [rude] people snooty, mean and frankly I hate being around people like that....Don't tell me that every dog that a rude breeder breeds is the perfect boxer because we all know their is always something to improve on...." and so on through the rest of your posts.

I missed this one last time:
[quote:1o6r96xd]So STOP bashing people for going in a different direction that you . It's not like you developed the boxer.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I thought I corrected that oversight in my second reply , oh well.
When I said you I was talking to cinema boxer .
Yes I breed for color and quality sorry I didn't specify with only in the original quote.
Why couldn't you find a plain stud with the same qualitys as a flashy one, It might take more time or work but wouldn't it be worth it to know you would not have any deaf pups. I not saying all white boxers were handicap ,I was refering to the deaf ones. I should have been more clear, But I figured everyone would know I was refering to deafness as the handicap. Not every white puppy born will be deaf but if there is even a chance I wouldn't want to risk it for that pups sake.
I think boxers should be as close to the the standard as possible but as for all the other stuff I don't want to argue, we will never agree. Every judge has their own picture of the perfect boxer. And so do I , It may be different than yours but no one will have the same idea of perfection. That is why the same dog does not win in every show.  We are human not robots therefore we do not all think the same. The standard is a guideline for keeping boxers looking seperate than other breeds . With that in mind I am allowed to try to reach the goal I have set for myself.
 

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You are not going to find a plain dog with the exact same qualities as the flashy dog; it just doesn't work that way.  Every dog has strengths and weaknesses, and every choice of breeding partner is a compromise as far as accepting some weaknesses in order to gain some more important strengths.  Color should be one of the *least* important considerations in selecting a stud dog, so long as he is within the standard.

Not every white puppy born will be deaf but if there is even a chance I wouldn't want to risk it for that pups sake.
Then you really shouldn't be breeding Boxers at all.  As I said, deafness occurs at a much lower rate than the more serious health problems like AS and ARVC, yet with every breeding there is a chance that you will produce puppies with these conditions.

Every judge has their own picture of the perfect boxer.
Yes, they do, as does every breeder - but that doesn't mean they're correct, it doesn't mean the vision won't change with time, and it absolutely doesn't mean they know everything there is to know about the conformation of a Boxer.
 
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