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Discussion Starter #1
the following e- mail was received via my boxer meetup.... i removed the phone # etc..



"We bred Max and Eva and were blessed with 10 puppies. So far my friends and family have claimed 4 of them. Before I put an ad in the paper, I wanted to let the group know because the only thing better than 1 Boxer is 2 :)

Being a Boxer owner for over 4 years, I know that a lot of family, friends and people we met at the various dog parks ask where I got them, how much they cost, etc. Everyone that has "babysat" our 2 adults have asked for one of their pups. I was hoping that some of the groups friends or family would be interested as well.

I know this is a meetup site and not an emarket, I just want them to have good homes and I thought this would be the best place to start. We are asking $600.00.

1 brindle female
2 fawn females.
1 fa wn male.

2 brindle males.

Here is a copy of the newspaper ad I am placing next week:
"Boxer puppies, purebred with APRI papers, tails docked, dew claws removed, 3 females, 3 males, mix of fawn and brindle, whelped on 3/22, avail 5/3-5/10. Health guarentee. $600 includes 1st shots and vet check. "


needless to say i am quite un happy about seeing this.  :x i emailed him and asked him if the parents have been health tested among other things.. simply out of curiosity NOT because i want one of the pups. Do i let him know that the way he went about breeding his dogs was wrong or keep my mouth shut? this is someone from the meetups i attend.just wondering what others opinions are. thanks!

* update* this is the email i received back from regarding my inquiry of proper pre- breeding evaluation/tests..  

"Hello Rebecca,

The parents have been checked by 5 vets over the years and have never been found to have any health problems, Max is almost 4 and Eva is almost 2.5.  They haven't had any heart tests, just the usual physicals and yearly checkups.  The vets checked their heart rate and all of the pupies have been screened by 2 vets also.  We are offering a 1 year health guarentee against the most common genetic problems found in Boxers."
 

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Re: sensitive subject.. i have a dilemma

oh that's a tough one, I have no clue what to tell you, just sucks when people you know are doing things you don't approve of and it's hard to approach...
 

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Re: sensitive subject.. i have a dilemma

My guess is to not say anything. You can't change how the pups got here whats done is done. Just hope the pups get good homes.
 

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Re: sensitive subject.. i have a dilemma

IMO, if they are at your meet up and you really dont care what they think then -

I would just simply say thanks for thinking of me, I am looking for a pup, but doing much research for a pup that comes from parents that have been health tested, and evaluted to standard and posses a great temperment.  After being involved in the boxer community, I have seen too much pain, as well as too much unwanted boxers resulting from people breeding their family pets.    So good luck with your litter and hope they find good homes.  

That or simply dont respond.   Half the time your comments fall upon deaf ears - heck I have a sister who wants to breed, and been trying for three years.   She could care less on what I have to say, so I dont discuss it.  Bring it up around me, and sure you'll her my two or eight cents.
 

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Re: sensitive subject.. i have a dilemma

I would lean towards saying something, but thats easier for me to say since I don't actually know them!
Also, they are letting the pups go at only 6 weeks old   :x
Let's see what they say about health testing, although I bet you don't need to wait for their reply to already know the real answer!
It is sad that so many people jump into breeding without research or thought to their actions and the effects that it has on the breed.
Whatever you say, just try to make it as informative as possible rather than coming out and saying what they did was wrong.  they would probably be more receptive to it in that tone as well.
Good luck :)
 

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Re: sensitive subject.. i have a dilemma

memy\";p=\"105505 said:
My guess is to not say anything. You can't change how the pups got here whats done is done. Just hope the pups get good homes.
Thats right, but if there is a chance she can prevent them bringing another litter into the world- it would be worth it.
 

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Re: sensitive subject.. i have a dilemma (long)

Yep true.   I always try to educate when I can.  And for people who want to listen then great, if not then f-em, and dont talk about it in front of me or you will hear it.  However whats done is done.   After they reply to your health testing you may just want to add something about how they should keep the pups until 8 weeks.  Institute a spay/neuter contract. etc.  Stuff like that can make a world of different to a mistake to allow another one from happening:)

Tought call, but you gotta do what makes your feel comfortable.
 

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I agree with Heather - let them know that they're losing sales because they aren't doing health testing or paying attention to structure/temperament.  I'd also throw in something about the health guarantee - that one year is worthless because you can't do any meaningful screening for most health conditions until at least two years of age.  (You might also say something like, "With so many Boxers that drop dead from heart conditions with no prior warning, I don't want to take the risk of a puppy from untested parents."  A lot of people just don't know that sudden death is often the first symptom of a problem.)

And definitely suggest they keep the puppies until eight weeks; in fact, it's illegal in the state of Illinois to sell a puppy before eight weeks of age, so be sure to let them know that.  Here's the relevant statute: (225 ILCS 605/2.2).
 

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Discussion Starter #9
thanks everyone, i just was not sure how to go about it. i don't know what the impact of me opening my mouth is going to be, but whatever happens, happens i guess.i just hope they don't take it the wrong way and i end up having to find another meetup..
 

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sumyasmom\";p=\"105634 said:
thanks everyone, i just was not sure how to go about it. i don't know what the impact of me opening my mouth is going to be, but whatever happens, happens i guess.i just hope they don't take it the wrong way and i end up having to find another meetup..
Hopefully they won't take it the wrong way and will learn a bit in the process.  I am hoping that when the dog park opens in Milton on Memorial Day, that I will be able to use one of the spaces for a meetup.  I am not sure if they will allow reservations of areas but I am going to check and find out.  You will be welcome here  :)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
thanks barb! :D regardless of what happens, it sounds like fun and i may join you anyway!!
 

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Also, I bet (or hope) that a lot of other members feel the same way you do and they are probably don't want to say anything either!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
here is the response i received from him.i am actually quite relieved that he did not take it the wrong way.although i dont' know the answers to the questions he asked,if anyone does know info would be appreciated!


"Hello Rebecca,

Thanks for the message.  I can't believe I put the wrong dates in for when the puppies would be available.  I would definitely not be able to let any of the puppies go before 8 weeks at the earliest.  I updated that on the Chicago meetup message board and will remind anyone that responds to the ad.  I had been around (English Bulldog) breeding for 10 years and had never seen a puppy go home before 8 weeks.  I know they learn a lot from the Mother, but also their litter mates.  They are in a crucial development phase so young in life and I wouldn't want to risk any of them not getting a chance to mature naturally.

As far as the health guarantee goes, I have lost 2 pets within their first year of life to health defects when I was a child/young adult.  They both had heart complications.  A friend of mine had her 6 month old "pet store" Golden Retriever puppy diagnosed with severe hip dysplasia last year.  The pet store offered to put the puppy down free of charge and provide her with a replacement puppy.  Obviously since hip dysplacia at that age has a high chance of recovery, my friend paid for the surgery herself, $2200.  The Golden is doing fine now.

We do not plan on breeding our dogs again, but I am interested in having them screened for any potential health defects or recessive genes for our knoweledge.  Do you know what the tests consist of?  Is it safe for the Mother to be tested while she is still nursing.  I will ask my parents about the health screenings, but if you have any more info I would appreciate it.  I would share the results of the tests with anyone considering a puppy."
 

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sumyasmom - it appears like you have a golden opportunity here to really educate this person and I think that since you went about it the right way (didn't jump right into insulting them for being dumb) that you have a good chance at possibly changing their stance on hobby breeding.  You know the info they need to know, it's all on these boards, good luck and great job!!  :)


This is seriously good stuff!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks nexu, that is much appreciated.
 

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Here's the ABC recommended screening:
http://www.americanboxerclub.org/health-screening.html

/vent/ It's a little odd (to me) that they've lost two dogs at a young age from heart defects, and have a friend who spent thousands on hip surgery in a puppy, yet haven't done any testing themselves.  I mean, what does it take to convince people (in general) to test if first-hand experience isn't enough? /end vent/

At any rate - OFA recommends hip x-rays wait until I think 3-4 weeks after pups are weaned; they also say not to test thyroid while a female is in estrus, but I might wait a few weeks after weaning for that one, too.  The male can be done at any time, of course.  Hip x-rays are simply x-rays - the vet may or may not use a sedative or anesthesia; thyroid is a blood draw; screening for AS is an auscultation (listening via stethoscope) with a Doppler Echocardiogram (non-invasive, basically a souped-up ultrasound); screening for ARVC is a 24-hour Holter monitor - like an EKG, so electrodes and wires and a recorder, all strapped on the dog for 24 hours (there are digital Holters which are smaller, about the size of a pager; the analog Holters are about the size of a Walkman).  The heart testing should be done by a board-certified veterinary cardiologist.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
first off thank you all for the help and advice, i felt this was a sticky situation and i wanted to handle it with care.i found the info i needed from the forums here and newcastle.i told him all about the tests and breeding not only health but physically also.this was his response..

"Hello Rebecca,

I spoke with my vet today and the only test he was aware of was the hip xray.  We will consider going to a new vet, but we do not plan on breeding Max and Eva again.  As far as them meeting the boxer standards, they are off the charts.  Max was $1200, not that price is always an indicator of quality.  Their physical charastics and temparment have never been a concern.  Thanks again for your input."


In the end i have mixed feelings about the whole thing.i looked at our meetup site and he only joined our group 1 day before he posted about the pups,which kind of makes me think that  the only reason he joined the group was to sell his pups. (grrrrr)secondly, he will not commit to instituting a spay/nueter contract for the pups.i have brought it up in every e-mail we exchanged.it also does not appear to me that he is going to spay/nueter the parents.he also seems to think that since max was 1200.00 he is up to the breed standards, even though he states that he knows price is not an indicator of quality, why elese would he tell me how much he paid?what about the female?i do feel good that i tried my hardest to educate him on the proper way to go about breeding,but i am not sure how seriously he took it.
 

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I think you have done a very good job at trying to educate this person.  It is up to him to actually follow through!  He has been given all the facts he needs about responsible breeding and has no excuse to do it again out of ignorance.  Now he knows he went about breeding his pets the wrong way.
We can only hope he won't do it again, and hopefully the people who take the pups won't continue the cycle or get pups with health problems.
When is the next meeting? Perhaps you can talk to him in person and see if other people act interested in what you have to say before taking one of his pups.
Could you "just happen" to send an article on choosing a puppy and which states to make sure their parents have been health tested, to the group? lol.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
[quote="g00dgirl\";p=\"106371":2ezavbu1]I think you have done a very good job at trying to educate this person.
 
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