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Discussion Starter #1
Finally getting around to doing this!

As many know I advocate for the Slip Lead, pretty much all the time! I'll make this relatively brief by posting a few links of discussions and back ground here.

The basics:
http://www.boxerforums.com/1736170-post12.html

Further discussions and many view points here:
http://www.boxerforums.com/training-behavior/176417-halti-snoot-loop-leash-training-jumping.html

And currently on going here:
http://www.boxerforums.com/training-behavior/179393-mendota-british-training-lead.html

And finally, what I found from a trainer, that does train his clients in the use of a Slip Lead Leash can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uk33c0_eEc&index=23&list=WL
 

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So, I just ordered a slip lead. But the thing I don't get from watching these videos is keeping it in the right position *and* keeping a loose lead. It seems like people say the tab thing slips, and you say the tab is irrelevant... so how do you keep the lead in the right place?

Uhtred is really good on the martingale, most of the time. But every once in awhile, especially if I walk him at the witching hour (7pm) or when he sees certain dogs, he still goes crazy. I'd like him to be obedient on the leash even then, which is why I'm thinking of switching.
 

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Your info was helpful. Thank you.

I have been working Raven our 11 week old pup on a slip lead. She does well on it except for walking. She doesn't like to walk on any leash. I give her the let's go or let's walk command and she just sits there. I try to force her to walk but she resists. What am I doing wrong?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
So, I just ordered a slip lead. But the thing I don't get from watching these videos is keeping it in the right position *and* keeping a loose lead. It seems like people say the tab thing slips, and you say the tab is irrelevant... so how do you keep the lead in the right place?
Ok the "tab" thing! This clip shows what I mean when I say...the tab thing is not important. Don't really know why the guy thinks, we want to see him?? And I don't think, the dogs, doing that great but it does make my point.

It's a make shift Slip Lead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8WoHRReh-U


Uhtred is really good on the martingale, most of the time. But every once in awhile, especially if I walk him at the witching hour (7pm) or when he sees certain dogs, he still goes crazy. I'd like him to be obedient on the leash even then, which is why I'm thinking of switching.
Don't worry to much about the tool in use. :)

I view the Martindale as more of a safty devise for "slippery" dogs in training than as a "real"training aide myself.

If that is what you have been using all along? Then your on the right track! Esssentially your using pretty much a flat leash and collar. It functions much like a loose fitting Prong with no teeth!

So that is not your "problem." If the puppy sits while walking or refues to move forward??

First you say "nothing," this would be the only time when the leash would be actually "stright" and have tension on it.

You would hold postion, no yanking no pulling just hold, keeping "pressure" on the leash. The dog/puppy "will" move forward in order to relief the pressure.If you can find eposides of "The Dog Whisper" or "Cesar 911" teaching dogs to swim you can see this applied. You hold "pressure" you don't pull but don't leash "pressure" the dog come forward, the leash goes slack!

With the tools you have been using you are learning what you need to know! Now I know I just said the "tab" is not important and they tend to move and I say don't worry about it. But...in the "beginning," making first, time it is on the dog and used properly!

Yes "positioning" of the leash is very important, at the start! High and snug for the "intro!" The dog, will know "something is diffrent???

After a few minuets of walking, the leash may start to slip and be lower on the dogs neck but at that point...it will make no difference, the point will have been made!

The dog "reactivity" is "usually" only a problem for dogs that "routinely"
associate with other dogs? If dogs get to commonly associate with other dogs...then other dogs are a distraction. My personal dogs were taught to "ignore" other dogs. So no leash reactivity problems, I have never had a leash reactive dog.

That's just background, I don't know the situation with the other dogs issue??
 

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Hmm... okay, thanks. The slipping down thing makes more sense now.

I've been using the martingale for a few months. Before that a front clip harness, which I no longer use. I don't know that I would say Uhtred is leash "reactive" ever, though I might not really understand the term. He sometimes gets excited and tries to go tearing off after something, usually because he sees a person or dog he wants to say hello to. We know most of the people and dogs we see on our walks. They are helpful and pretty good about not coming to say hi to him unless he behaves.

When I think "reactive" I think about some of the dogs I saw at dog class who would bark and lunge at other dogs and fight the leash and jump up on their owners with their teeth bared and things like that. Uhtred never does that stuff.

Anyway when Uhtred tries to go running off I do what the dog trainer who gave me the martingale said to do in those situations -- I give a sharp pop on the leash and immediately slacken it again: I try to never actually let us get in a situation where he's actively pulling. After I do that a few times, he will sit down. Then, usually, I will start walking again, and he will try to pull again if the dog or person is still around. And so on. He *is* getting a little better, I think. I was just wondering if I should switch to something other than the martingale to deal with those episodes more effectively.

And again, in general, he's really good. The dog sitter and dog walker (and my husband) couldn't believe how well behaved he was on the leash, given how young he is.
 

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So, I just ordered a slip lead. But the thing I don't get from watching these videos is keeping it in the right position *and* keeping a loose lead. It seems like people say the tab thing slips, and you say the tab is irrelevant... so how do you keep the lead in the right place?
Ok the "tab" thing! This clip shows what I mean when I say...the tab thing is not important. Don't really know why the guy thinks, we want to see him?? And I don't think, the dogs, doing that great but it does make my point.

It's a make shift Slip Lead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8WoHRReh-U
Not trying to high jack this thread but as you know, Chip, I have the same thread posted and had to comment on this video. Leash pressure as this guy shows here absolutely does not faze Solo, he pulls so hard, he brings intense leash pressure on himself so it is impossible to use that as a corrective measure. Even if I was able to apply light leash pressure, he would simply pull his hardest. It would do nothing. He does not react to it at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Not trying to high jack this thread but as you know, Chip, I have the same thread posted and had to comment on this video.
This ^^^ is not a hijack. :)

You only finally motivated me to actually start a thread on this subject! So "Thank you for that!" Asking questions is the point! It's betters to have "my" own thread for "this" subject and use it as a guideline, rather than having info scattered in multiple threads!


Leash pressure as this guy shows here absolutely does not faze Solo, he pulls so hard, he brings intense leash pressure on himself so it is impossible to use that as a corrective measure. Even if I was able to apply light leash pressure, he would simply pull his hardest. It would do nothing. He does not react to it at all.
The guy sucks and the dog is "sloppy" why he chose to post that I have no idea??

The dog "obviously" is "not" a puller! But at one point it must have been?? The only point in my posting of the video was to show that the position of the "tab" makes no difference...."once the point has been made."

At some point he "had" has to have positioned the leash properly?? He is just to clueless to realize that "once the dog has been trained to walk properly, there is "nothing" to be seen! :)

Once the "point" has been made, you can walk the dog with anything! He might as well just have clipped the leash on the collar, because he is showing "nothing!"

A regular collar, a prong or a "regular" harness "makes" no difference to a dog "once" the dog has been "shown" what is expected of him.

It's very difficult to find video of people getting it done right with a Slip Lead Leash! The first clip (hmm buried a little deeper than I thought) is a good example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gnwfZ7xv-E0

Well..look at that??!! I have used this "clip" for years and I just noticed...he is using a regular collar!!?? Which is as it turned out...something I did not realize, before I started using the Slip Lead! That is a bit of a surprise to me?? :)

But...part of the "problem" in actually showing how it's done and the whole Slip Leash needs to be high and tight at first, is because "apparently" if your really, really good...you only have about 30 secs to show the difficult phase!

When this happened...I was speechless and I was the one doing it!
http://www.boxerforums.com/1754161-post16.html

That was 10 years in the making however! My goal is to help people figure it out quicker than that! It looks like "magic!" You see Cesar do it all the time! And yet...you don't see "anything!"

I "stumbled" onto it with the Slip Lead Leash, I just did what I had always did but fitted what I had high and snug. And deer dog and another "pulling"
Boxer pretty much instantly changed!

Jeff Gellman comes as close as anyone I know in explaining/showing it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo

Ultimately it's not about the "tool" it's about the owner!

But yes I understand the current problem, and I'll see what I can find. :)

But...the English guy did say work on your dog at home, so folks should be working on the "Place Command" at the same time they work on this!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hmm... okay, thanks. The slipping down thing makes more sense now.
That is my explanation and experience. First thirty seconds, the dog "knows" it's there (Slip Lead) after, that "for me" the placement of the leash seems to make, not much difference??

When I think "reactive" I think about some of the dogs I saw at dog class who would bark and lunge at other dogs and fight the leash and jump up on their owners with their teeth bared and things like that. Uhtred never does that stuff.
Yep you got it, so that is not what your seeing. :)


He sometimes gets excited and tries to go tearing off after something, usually because he sees a person or dog he wants to say hello to. We know most of the people and dogs we see on our walks. They are helpful and pretty good about not coming to say hi to him unless he behaves.

Anyway when Uhtred tries to go running off I do what the dog trainer who gave me the martingale said to do in those situations -- I give a sharp pop on the leash and immediately slacken it again: I try to never actually let us get in a situation where he's actively pulling. After I do that a few times, he will sit down. Then, usually, I will start walking again, and he will try to pull again if the dog or person is still around. And so on. He *is* getting a little better, I think. I was just wondering if I should switch to something other than the martingale to deal with those episodes more effectively.

And again, in general, he's really good. The dog sitter and dog walker (and my husband) couldn't believe how well behaved he was on the leash, given how young he is.
That's a bit different now it's a dog that is just more of a PIA. But...he is doing what he has been "trained to do."

"Anything with legs is my friend and I want to greet them!" My guys were taught to "ignore" other dogs and that is what they did/do. They could go anywhere without "any issues."
.
So your guy is doing what he learned. But for "now"... as long is he is "in training" no more meet and greets on walks would be a good course of action! He needs to learn "not" to "expect" to meet dogs on walks

Now something a bit less "esoteric." The Martingale is neither here nor there for me. I view them more as a safety device than a "training aide myself.

You're watching your dog and are aware when it looks like, there maybe a problem, and that is what you need to do.

The leash pops sound like they are having little effect on him?? He is starting to get used to them kinda like:



Try a different leash pop!

Switch it up on him! I "had" to use this on Rocky my GSD. I was talking to a neighbor ,his dogs were out of control behind a fence. Bark,bark, bark in Rocky's face!

Rocky has "Wobblers" so leash corrections of "any type" are not an option! No barking or lunging he stood next to me but was clearly becoming "agitated!"

I mentioned it on the GSD board and David Winners mod and K9 vet, suggested a light tap on the top of the head, with the loose end of the leash as a solution. The next time I gave it a try (just a quick tap) on the head with the leash but your "not" smacking the crap out of the dog.

So the next time, same deal. We stop and talk, the neighbors dogs go nuts. Rocky starts to bounce! This time I look at him and sigh...then I "remember" "leash pop" so that's what do. Pop on the head with the loose end of the leash. Rocky looks at me like What the heck was that ??? And stops bouncing and now just stands calmly by my side!

The dogs behind the fence...they continue barking for another minuet, while I and the neighbor talk. Then stop...hmm waste of time here...no reaction from that dog??? Then they stop barking and start to wag there tails!! :)

A leash pop on the head and a "Tsss" if you want to stay and talk or a leash pop and then "move along dog" if you don't want to stop! Switch it up on your dog ,change his mind set!

With Cesar, that is what the heel taps and finger pokes are all about.
 

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That picture is great!
This is a picture of Uhtred that I took the other day when he'd decided he was done with the whole obedient walking thing. He definitely has the "I do what I want" look on his face. :)
Thanks for the suggestions too! I will try a different correction and see if that helps.
 

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That picture is great!
This is a picture of Uhtred that I took the other day when he'd decided he was done with the whole obedient walking thing. He definitely has the "I do what I want" look on his face. :)
Thanks for the suggestions too! I will try a different correction and see if that helps.
Yep that is a face that say's yeah we are done here! :chair:

But...it's also an "extremely" helpful picture!!! Don't have time right now, but I can tell you "exactly" what you need to do! You already have the all the gear you need! Just need to use it a little differently! :)
 

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Not trying to high jack this thread but as you know, Chip, I have the same thread posted and had to comment on this video. Leash pressure as this guy shows here absolutely does not faze Solo, he pulls so hard, he brings intense leash pressure on himself so it is impossible to use that as a corrective measure. Even if I was able to apply light leash pressure, he would simply pull his hardest. It would do nothing. He does not react to it at all.
How old of a dog?
Have you only used a slip lead or have you used other type collars?

I have nothing against slip leads and use them all the time. That being said it's a tool just like anything else.
Here is something you have to realize, IMHO dog training has more egos then any other profession. You will get a lot of "your not doing it right..., I only need "x" to correct that problem..., If you can't get to dog to do "x"...ect."
As the saying goes "the only thing 2 dog trainers will agree on is the 3rd on is doing it wrong".

Ideally you're looking to correct a problem regardless of the tool used
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Thanks, Chip!
I'll look forward to seeing what you suggest...
OK, using the picture you posted as a reference.

And not changing any tools you have in use because they are fine. Now note where the attachment point is on the leash and collar, it's at 6:00. I would walk up to the dog say "nothing"rotate the collar/leash to 12:00 straight up

At that point... I would step straight back, leash goes taunt and it's at a downward angle and just enough pressure is being applied for the dog to feel it. The dog should step forward with froward and "slight" upward pressure being applied.

Now you can say..."let's go and wait!" The dog "should" step forward to relief the pressure, most likely, inside of 30 secs! Then you simply walk!

I trust that it is clear to say why you "DO NOT WANT TO YANK ON YOUR DOG!" If you do this!

But if you try the same thing with the leash as it is in the photo?? Your working the dog at his strongest point! You would be trying to move dead weight, if he does not "choose" to move! If your on grass, yeah you can drag him across the lawn...no problem! :)

But...at he 12:00 0'clock position what happens when you walk?? Well unless you make an active effort to keep the leash/collar at 12:00, most likely it will again rotate down to 6:00, that is the equivalent of the "tab" thingy getting loose!

So now it's no longer at the dogs weakest point! This will happen with the Martingale a Regular collar and the Slip lead (rotate downward). It won't happen with a properly fitted Prong Collar and those apply even pressure, so they always operate at "maximum" efficiency! Most likely why they are used??

But in my experience, the fact that the other tools mentioned "drop" in efficiency is irrelevant! The "point" has been made, once the dog has chosen to comply!

Usually...only takes one time doing it this way! Is any of this clear???
 

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How old of a dog?
Getting it right?? Puppies regular collar and leash is what was used. Regular collar and leash on dogs of various ages many of which had never seen a leash in there lives.

Have you only used a slip lead or have you used other type collars?
Nope, getting it wrong I used a Prong collar quite badly! Half read a "book" figured I had it down! I did "yank and crank" on Gunther! :( It was "our" thing! He was the only dog, I ever had that would not walk well on a leash!! Fine off leash but crap on leash!



It was me not the Prong! So I said "screw" this Flat leash and collar,it was! I stopped thinking "What is wrong with this stupid dog?? And started "thinking" what am "I" doing wrong???"
Flat leash and collar worked very well for me...no problem! I used my first Slip Lead with a "puller" at rescue! Flat leash lessons applied dog was walking well for me...pretty much "instantly???" I was sold!

Handed him off at the end of the day and yep sure enough off he goes "dragging" his handler behind him!:chair:



I have nothing against slip leads and use them all the time. That being said it's a tool just like anything else.
Here is something you have to realize, IMHO dog training has more egos then any other profession. You will get a lot of "your not doing it right..., I only need "x" to correct that problem..., If you can't get to dog to do "x"...ect."
As the saying goes "the only thing 2 dog trainers will agree on is the 3rd one is doing it wrong".

Ideally you're looking to correct a problem regardless of the tool used
I don't really care about the larger scope of "dog training." For purposes of this thread...the tool of choice is the Slip Lead, Regular collar and (sigh) for general purposes of showing "principles" a prong collar.

And despite my harsh brutish "training" I did enough right with Gunther, that he was an excellent "safe" around other dogs ,canine good citizen! Turns out I was able to accomplish the same thing without being harsh! My first foray into GSD world with my GSD in was when I was finally forced to "think" about what I was doing!

I want to help others to get it right the "first" time! :)
 

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so... I did what you said, I think.
I think this is my issue. Most of the time, he's awesome on the leash. He sits to get his leash on, sits until he's invited outside the front door, sits while I lock it, and then we go for our walk. For most of the walk he walks beside my left leg.
Like today, for instance, we had no issues at all. So even though I did put the leash at 12 like you said, I can't tell if it makes a difference.
I think what I'm (mentally) struggling with, with a tool like the slip lead, or even with putting the lead I have at 12, is that it seems like the acting up needs to occur *while* everything is perfectly positioned. But he doesn't act up in general. He acts up when we unexpectedly turn the corner and see his friend or etc.
I'm thinking maybe I could reposition things when we are getting close to spots where we sometimes run into distractions, or maybe carry the slip lead with me and put it on before we get to those spots.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I think my my mistake has been giving Solo more than 8-10" of leash.

Question: With him just having 8-10" of leash and it sitting high behind his ears...will that short length prevent the leash from sliding down onto his neck if he suddenly decides to lunge forward?
I pulled this from the other thread because I need to address "corrections" with a Slip Lead!

Yes 8 to 10 inches is correct. Dog on the left looking at the dog from the front.The leash loop/tab would be at 9:00 or 11:00. That would be fine,

It puts you in a position to "redirect" your dog if the need arises! You can't really do a "leash pop" with a Slip Lead leash! But you can get "compliance" I'll explain in a sec but first...

A long time ago on here, I was asked what I do for corrections?? And honestly it's not much. Lesson's learned from "Stewie" on a walk I was tired and short tempered. He was doing "whatever" I turned to him and said "SIT!!" He looked at me like he was going to cry and sat down! I was stunned, and from that point on I realized, that your voice ie demeanor carries a lot of power!

The baby talk and over all silliness needs to stop when it's training time! Saying no more than the minimum required to convey what is wanted...carries a lot of power with dogs and "especially" Boxers!

With a Slip lead, as I said you can't leash pop.! If you yank on the leash you risk "snapping your dog harshly sideways" and hurting his neck! If you think there will be a problem that is where you need the leash in the 9:00 position, with little slack! To "redirect" you pull the dog "sideways" off balance,release and then you can say "No" or "move alone" or 'leave it" issue a command "redirect sideways" and move! Actually command first and then "redirect if needed!

If you want to remain in front of the distraction...leash at nine or twelve o'clock and a Sit! It doesn't take force!

As I tend to say..."What would Jeff do??"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo

And I understand we are not working with dogs this out of control. But he is showing what I am trying to explain and note that in the beginning, he "is" using a Slip lead leash and then he changes and he explains why!

Acywyol15, did I answer any of your questions in your last post??
 

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Getting it right?? Puppies regular collar and leash is what was used. Regular collar and leash on dogs of various ages many of which had never seen a leash in there lives.

Nope, getting it wrong I used a Prong collar quite badly! Half read a "book" figured I had it down! I did "yank and crank" on Gunther! :( It was "our" thing! He was the only dog, I ever had that would not walk well on a leash!! Fine off leash but crap on leash!



It was me not the Prong! So I said "screw" this Flat leash and collar,it was! I stopped thinking "What is wrong with this stupid dog?? And started "thinking" what am "I" doing wrong???"
Flat leash and collar worked very well for me...no problem! I used my first Slip Lead with a "puller" at rescue! Flat leash lessons applied dog was walking well for me...pretty much "instantly???" I was sold!

Handed him off at the end of the day and yep sure enough off he goes "dragging" his handler behind him!:chair:



I don't really care about the larger scope of "dog training." For purposes of this thread...the tool of choice is the Slip Lead, Regular collar and (sigh) for general purposes of showing "principles" a prong collar.

And despite my harsh brutish "training" I did enough right with Gunther, that he was an excellent "safe" around other dogs ,canine good citizen! Turns out I was able to accomplish the same thing without being harsh! My first foray into GSD world with my GSD in was when I was finally forced to "think" about what I was doing!

I want to help others to get it right the "first" time! :)
If you look a little closer you will see the question was directed at Solo and his/her dog

And while this is a "slip lead thread" if it's not working for them I have no problem suggesting something different.

My mistake was I should have addressed it in Solo's thread and not this one.
 

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If you look a little closer you will see the question was directed at Solo and his/her dog
Hmm well if you wanted to address them you should have quoted them like uh well...this! :)

Nonetheless even if it was not addressed to me, I felt it was a fair question and should be answered!

And while this is a "slip lead thread" if it's not working for them I have no problem suggesting something different.
Feel free to suggest away and as long as it's it's not a suggestion to use "crap" you will get no objections from me!

People that follow my post "understand" that reference! :)

But to be clear the tools in play are a flat leash and collar/Martingale if one chooses. And to be successful with those...you need to be very good! If you can use those, then you can easily transfer those skills to a Slip Lead Leash, with very little effort!

And a Prong Collar, will by and large be brought up most likely a lot. I don't use one but "today," I could if I chose to do so! These are all tools used by people that train and rehab dogs with serious freaking," I will kill you and your little dog Toto to" problems! They can't afford to screw around with "crap" when people send there dogs to them to be trained. They don't have time to fool around with "crap!"

That would most certainly be a Prong and although Jeff Gellman, disagrees he says you can't use a Slip Lead Leash to correct a dog!

That is not entirely true! In skilled hands a Slip Lead Leash can be used to deliver a very sharp clear and hard "correction" to a dog!

In as much as I doubt there are very many "up leash" Boxers on here??? I'll let Gellmans statement stand, you can't correct a dog with a Slip lead leash!
I have no problems working within those parameters! Takes a lot of words but I feel it can be explained!

If you work with rescues, those people will not allow you to put a "harness" or a "Prong collar" on often one of there ill trained by and large dogs! You have two choices a Slip Lead Leash or a Flat leash and collar!

If your good with either, you'll have a pleasant outing with a nice dog that walks well on leash. If your not...you'll have a better understanding of why that dog is in rescue!

As it happens at rescue I fall into the "not alot of time to screw around paradigm! I want to walk the dog. Not spend most of my time training leash manners, I can do that in a matter of minuets,then we walk! My goal is to help others better understand how that is done!

But if folks want to vary within what "I" describe as "real tools" go for it! You can learn how to better utilize them "here" is my belief.

Time and dogs done, will tell???
 
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