[Honeyec]

Ok, so I saw this programme for the first time last night, and all I could think was "How in God's name can anyone be fooled by this man???"

 

[mom2scoutandgunner]

Some do....I don't.  I would love to see the edit out part of the film!  Some of his training methods are not bad but some of them are horrendous.  I guess people will believe what they want to believe.

 

[Docsmom]

I guess I may be gullible but I do believe him.  Now in this particular case I dont think it happened in 10 minutes but I do believe he can change some behaviours in humans as well as pets.

I believe it because I just got a dog from a shelter with a few bad habits and practicing what he preached I got her to stop in 5 minutes.  Im not a charlatan.  I also have a friend that has a pit bull that has a few issues and after they have been working with her she is a lot better.  

I grew up with a father that taught me a lot of the things that Cesar does and I just took it for granted that I never had any problems with my dogs.  After seeing friends that dont do this I have personally seen them have problems and have out of control dogs.  Im not saying that if you dont do what he says you will have out of control dogs either.  It just depends on the dog.

 

[tootsie]

I love the dog whisperer! I think he's great. Now, I don't think all of his methods are wonderful, but I sure learn from him. I think he does a great job in training humans to train their dogs. When training an animal, I think it is more important first to train the one that is going to be doing the training.
Of course they will edit a majority of the training sesssions, they have to, they have time constraints. I worked at 2 news stations, and I can't tell you the amount of a story that is edited out and does not make it to air. Sometimes I thought they have edited the biggest part of the story!
I personally would welcome the opportunity to work with Cesar Millan and a few dogs!  :winkle:

 

[Honeyec]

I have to disagree.  I think the few "useful" things he teaches are just pure common sense and should be blindingly obvious to everyone, and the rest is just so much hokum.

It's like all these TV nutritionists like Gillian McKeith -did they all graduate from the Institute of Stating the Patently Obvious???!!!  "You mean if I eat nothing but fast food and chocolate and never exercise I'll get fat???  Jeez, I never would have figured that out on my own!"

Sorry about the rant, it may just be the famous Irish intolerance for bullsh*t coming out!

 

[Docsmom]

Yeah, most of it is common sense, but in this day and age TONS of people dont have any common sense.  I am amazed DAILY at the amount of stupid people out there.  haha

 

[Newcastle]

It's true that many people don't have common sense about their dogs, and Cesar does help people to realize that dogs are not little kids in fur coats.  If he left it at that, I'd be fine with him.

Unfortunately, he goes beyond that, and uses force, coercion, and intimidation to 'rehabilitate' the dogs he sees (often misreading fear as aggression along the way, completely ignoring the entirely appropriate warning signals dogs give until they have no choice but to lash out, and 'flooding' the dog with so much input and stimulus that it simply shuts down - which looks like a miraculous cure on TV, but in reality generally leads to increased problems down the road).  

As numerous trainers and behaviorists have said (and remember, Cesar makes no claims to be either), he has single-handedly set back dog training at least 40 years.    Instead of using science and learning theory to teach dogs, he has fallen back on the antiquated, inaccurate 'alpha wolf' teachings which view the relationship between person and dog as an ongoing battle for power.  Happily, today there are people like Nicholas Dodman, Ian Dunbar, Karen Pryor, Bob Bailey, Melissa Alexander, Pat Miller, Patricia McConnell, Trish King, Kay Laurence, Karen London, who take the time to not only see the dog as a dog, but to recognize that dogs do not see us as other dogs, and so have found ways to effectively communicate between the species.

Obviously, I'm not a fan.  Understand that your dog is a dog, yes.  Be sure the dog gets adequate exercise, yes (though walking your dog will not solve every single behavior problem it has, which often seems to the be message given on the show).  Establish guidelines, and uphold them consistently, yes.  Be confident in yourself, yes.  Visualize success and picture the dog doing what you want it to do, yes.  Force the dog to do what you want by choking, manhandling, stringing up, flooding - no, absolutely not.

 

[tootsie]

[quote="Newcastle\";p=\"6020":150cxfex]

 

[BoxerForums]

I saw a show in which a boxer was being trained. When Cesar started working with the boxer, the dog's ears went flat against his head. Cesar said the ears in that position represent the dog being calm. When my dogs' ears go back, it means they are freaked out. I thought he got that completely wrong. What do you guys think? Am I wrong?

 

[tootsie]

Yeah, I'd have to disagree with Cesar on that one. I think when their ears are pinned back like that, they are pretty mad about something!  :x  I think that is attack mode!  8O  When mine are relaxed, their ears just flop naturally. So, maybe this guy is a whack job!!!!!!! I think The Dog Whisperer comes on tonite. I'll have to get the kids to bed early so I can really pay attention and watch it.  :roll:

 

[jeanathanh2o]

The thing to remember about Cesar.  he isn't training puppies.  He is rehabilitating dogs who are out of control and in danger of being taken to shelters as lost causes.  He has a great success record there.  i don't think he is overbearing or cruel.  I also don't think many of his techniques are needed for most dogs.

I recently read a 16 page debate about cesar on another dog forum.  16 pages back and forth.  and it got really heated and ugly.
Some like him some don't.

I just deleted the rest of my post.  I just don't want to get emotionally tied up in this debate.  it is too heated already.

 

[Docsmom]

And sometimes when my boxers ears go back its because they are being submissive and calm.  I dont yell or beat my dogs either.  

I just think that he has some good ideas, no I wouldnt use all of them but you have to be like that in other facets of your life.  

Its pretty interesting what opinions are out there and Im glad that we have this forum to see what they are.  (Just glad this isnt a political forum!)   :wink:

 

[tootsie]

.

The thing to remember about Cesar. he isn't training puppies. He is rehabilitating dogs who are out of control and in danger of being taken to shelters as lost causes. He has a great success record there. i don't think he is overbearing or cruel. I also don't think many of his techniques are needed for most dogs.

I recently read a 16 page debate about cesar on another dog forum. 16 pages back and forth. and it got really heated and ugly.
Some like him some don't.

I just deleted the rest of my post. I just don't want to get emotionally tied up in this debate. it is too heated already.

This topic shouldn't get heated at all. Like you said, some like him, some do not. From the episodes I have seen, I like him.  I've seen nothing wrong with him, other than when he grabbed the dogs face and muzzled him. I'm just really curious about him now. I might even have to record some of his episodes so that I can watch more. Maybe, I'll come to despise him, or even like him more.
The purpose of these forums is to learn and share each others experiences with each other so that we can learn more. We might not always agree, but at least we should be able to do that without getting heated, and in an adult manner

 

[BoxerForums]

The purpose of these forums is to learn and share each others experiences with each other so that we can learn more. We might not always agree, but at least we should be able to do that without getting heated, and in an adult manner

I couldn't have said it better!

 

[Newcastle]

WHAT??? I must have missed that episode!

Those things have occurred on several different episodes.  The stringing up was one of the first episodes I saw, and the worst choking I've seen him do (though at least he didn't helicopter the dog like some do!).  The manhandling was one where he got bitten three times; the dog was in obvious extreme fear, and Cesar forced it to the ground on its side and held it there.  From the dog's point of view, there was no choice but to bite him.  

I thought the dog was running playfully, but Cesar said it was aggresively.
....
When Cesar started working with the boxer, the dog's ears went flat against his head. Cesar said the ears in that position represent the dog being calm. When my dogs' ears go back, it means they are freaked out. I thought he got that completely wrong. What do you guys think? Am I wrong?

This is something I've seen repeatedly, him completely misreading the dog's signals.  Like the dog that was cowering toward the floor in anxiety, and he 'corrected' it for being aggressive, or the dog that kept backing away from him and barking, and he called it aggressive.  (I think Cesar is predisposed to see aggression in every dog, actually.)  Ears back can mean a number of things, typically fear, stress, or submission; flat on the head means stronger emotion.  (In this case, Cesar was correct as far as his dictionary goes - submissive is the same thing as calm to him.  For most trainers, calm is neutral, and ears may be up or back, but relaxed.)  I highly recommend Brenda Aloff's book, "Canine Body Language", for more information on this topic; there's also a nice pictorial example here:
http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/diagrams.html

He is rehabilitating dogs who are out of control and in danger of being taken to shelters as lost causes.  He has a great success record there.

Sometimes he is - other times he's just working with dogs who have never been trained before.  I know of a number of trainers who have had to re-train dogs once Cesar was done with them, so his success rate may not be as good as it seems to be on the show.

I don't see that this discussion is getting heated at all, though.  I do not agree with training by force and intimidation, it is certainly not the kind of relationship I want to have with my dogs (and I'm not sure why anyone would), but I think in general people don't think about that when they watch the show, so I try to raise awareness.  Most importantly, though, I think he has the potential to be dangerous - not only to the dog-human relationship, but to individual owners.  People need to realize that what he does is not something that the average owner should do, and often is a very good way to get bitten.  I know the show pops up with a "do not try this at home" disclaimer at times, but the show also portrays his techniques as almost "miracle cures" for any problem, and those people who don't have a lot of common sense are also the ones who are going to ignore that disclaimer.

 

[ssimmons99]

My 2 cents -

I thinks his methods work well for dogs that cannot be trained by other methods.  To be totally honest - I started Chloe on clicker training about 6 weeks ago - and I NEVER knew that something could work so well.

Now - she doesn't have issues like trying to take the mail man out or anything.

I have read his book and his methods and his explinations in the book seem very logical and he has saved many dogs whose trainers have said that they needed to be put down - so with that I would say that he is really there to help dogs - I just think that it should be used in extreme situations only.

 

[JessiesMom]

[quote="tootsie\";p=\"6028":qqfh6v4i]Yeah, I'd have to disagree with Cesar on that one. I think when their ears are pinned back like that, they are pretty mad about something!

 

[JessiesMom]

Those things have occurred on several different episodes.

 

[Newcastle]

I should have noted, that from what I've heard the book is basically good - it is his philosophy, which is mostly sound.  Where the problem lies, for me, is how he puts that philosophy into practice on the TV show - there's a large disconnect there.  (I'll qualify that with the note that I haven't read the book, because I don't want to give him one cent of my money , so if he makes suggestions as far as leash corrections, physical dominance, etc., I'd toss out those parts; but based on interviews I've read and heard, that doesn't typically come out until he's actually working with the dogs.)

I thinks his methods work well for dogs that cannot be trained by other methods.  

From the behavioral point of view, there's no such thing.  There are trainers, however, who cannot train with other methods.

To be totally honest - I started Chloe on clicker training about 6 weeks ago - and I NEVER knew that something could work so well.

It's a bit amazing, isn't it?  That is what science and learning theory have done for dog training and the dog-human relationship.  The more you learn, the bigger the possibilities become.  (Hm, just realized I forgot Suzanne Clothier in my list above.)

 

[Docsmom]

Forgive my ignorance but what is clicker training?  I have heard of it before but never knew much about it.