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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Thank you for the text!

One thing that the text does not make clear is that cephalic index refers to skull shape and not the muzzle shape. This is a common misconception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalic_index

People often improperly use the term 'brachycephalic' to describe the bulldog breeds' underbite when they should be using the term 'mandibular prognathism'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prognathism

The underbite is used by catch dogs to hold the ears or lips of large game animals like steers or pigs.

So I assume that the tendency to bite and hold tends to run in such Bully breeds.

But I wonder if this constrains these types of dogs in sleeve work or protection....
 

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Grab an orange with a pair of needle nosed pliers (the GSD bite) and pull. . . What happens? That's right, the pliers cut right into it.

Now grab the same orange with a pair of regular pliers (the much shorter, wider boxer bite) and pull. . . Is the orange less damaged? Of course it is.
That makes sense.. but isn't it the grip that is more important than the amount it cuts into the object? I would sooner use a pair of regular pliers to pick up a chicken drumstick (the closest think I could think of that resembles a human arm) rather than the needle nosed pliers, because the regular, wider pliers have more stability and are less likely to drop the chicken.. or fall off the chicken if the chicken is shaking :king:
 

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The Boxer underbite is specifically designed to have the best holding power. If you put a sheet of paper between your fingers in the form a level bite, where the teeth (your fingertips) meet evenly and have someone try to pull the paper out, it won't be too difficult. If, on the other hand, your fingers form an underbite, where the bottom teeth come in front of the top teeth, it's much more difficult to pull the paper out.

Add to that the Boxers upturned nose, which allows it to breathe when it has a mouth full of fur (prey), and the furrows which keep the blood from running into the eyes, you see that the Boxer was specifically designed to catch and hold large prey.
 

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Hello all,

I live in Germany and have a Deutsche Boxer, our second. Boxers are fantastic “Schutzhunde”, they are actually qualified as police dogs. The width of the muzzle has nothing to do with being a good or bad Schutzhund, the wide muzzle is excellent for this purpose, and this is why the boxer was used for hunting wild bore many many years ago. Because of the wide muzzle and strength of the jaws it was able to hold the bore down. The bite of a boxer is much stronger than that of a Sheppard. German boxers are not bred for the purpose of schutzhund, that is just part of their character.

The failure or success of a boxer being able to bite (Schutzhund) is mainly due to the skills and ability of the person training it. We also train our boxer (now four months old), Shutzhund, obedience, and trailing. Trailing is very time consuming and needs a great deal of practice, it does not just happen over night.

I have included a link to our Boxers Father doing Schutzhund (the site is in German).

http://www.boxer-horst.de/Navigation/Frameset.html


Please click the link
Please then click on the main page
Click “Magic Boy” that is the Father of our Boxer
Then click “Video”
Then click either the left or right video (you can also watch both)

Then watch him practicing

I feel quite comfortable to say that any boxer can do this; it needs the right trainer.

Cheers

Steve
 

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Montys_Mom said:
Grab an orange with a pair of needle nosed pliers (the GSD bite) and pull. . . What happens? That's right, the pliers cut right into it.

Now grab the same orange with a pair of regular pliers (the much shorter, wider boxer bite) and pull. . . Is the orange less damaged? Of course it is.
That makes sense.. but isn't it the grip that is more important than the amount it cuts into the object?
Refer to the part of my post that discusses the issues that our police forces face with regards to today's litigious society. ;)

The amount of cutting absolutely is a consideration, however, I feel that the quality of grip is also much better with regards to the boxer mouth as is pointed out by Newcastle above. :)
 

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Steve, Marylou here, do you know of a Wolfgang Gaa he breeds Rotties and Boxers, under the Gruntenblick kennel name???
 

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This is a great, I was lucky enough to go to the USABox last July and watch the ZPT testing. The judge they brought over from Germany had very good English so i was able to understand all of his comments. Needless to say I was in heaven being there around all the boxers but I was lucky enough to know Renee, have her introduce me to people and explain as we went along. The things that impressed me most were the thoroughness of the confirmation test, the 12 mile (forget, may have been more) mile endurance test where the owners are on bikes and the dogs are running beside them and the amazing obedience of those dogs. One minute you see them hit the sleeve, a command is given total focus is on the owner and what comes next. It was so much fun to watch; I wanted to take videos of all the dogs doing the protection portion but stopped after the first few since I was so intrigued.

Here are some links of pictures and the winners of the show I saw.

Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

Show winners and judge info: http://p2.hostingprod.com/@usabox.org/show_results.html

Renee's Anya came in third in her class
 

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Steve, I know this is completely off topic, but why was Magic Boy's tail docked when he's obviously full grown??? Were there problems with the tail? Edited to change cropped to docked...lol
 

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Stiff - Not sure the real answer so we will save that for Steve ;) But I do know that tail splitting, and fractures are common in boxers who have tails hence why some adults have gone thru an amputation (which is a late dock).
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Another issue that I forgot to list as a potential liability in terms of Boxers doing protection or versatility sports is the strong stop on their face and how that leaves their eyes vulnerable.

(A Doberman enthusiast pointed this out to me once, asserting that the muzzle of the Doberman is difficult to grab and the shallow stop helps to protect the eyes; but I wonder, was this the intention of the breed originator Ludwig Dobermann or was it coincidental?)

As a catch dog, the severe stop on the Boxer as well as its wrinkles on its nose helped draw fluid away from the eyes as it held its prey, and dog breeds must continue to conform physically to their standard as though they could perform their original function, so while the Boxer's temperament has changed over the decades, even if the strong stop is a liability in today's uses of the Boxer, it must remain a feature of the breed. Right?
 

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While, yes, the stop may too deep in some dogs (again, specifically, many Euros), the stop should not be so deep as to ever allow someone to get a firm grip on a dog's head.

A woman who was born into our breed, and who's mother owned the famous Merrilane Kennels once showed me that the stop should be just deep enough for the tip of the thumb to rest lightly in it, but never deep enough for it to get lost in it.

With boxers, moderation is key. Yes, the stop should be noticeable, but it shouldn't be a crater.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
I think that in all working dog breeds, moderation is the key to health and versatility.

In fact, this also true of the American Pit Bull Terrier, a famously versatile farm dog sometimes referred to as the "American's German Shepherd". Alas, the breed has been corrupted, but here are the original standards. Note how the stop is supposed to be moderate and balanced.

http://www.apbtconformation.com/head.htm

(Note that the American Bulldog is cited as an example of a more pronounced stop.)

And here are some beautifully balanced Pit Bull heads: http://www.ukcpitbull.com/headstudy1.htm
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Another thing I forgot to mention is that I once stumbled on a website about American Bulldogs and protection work and big-game hunting, and it said that the most effective dogs in those ways were under one hundred pounds and had a muzzle length of at least 2.5 to 3 inches.

Would that assertion on muzzle length apply to Boxers as well, you think?
 

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Good Morning,

@Marylou, sorry but I do not know Wolfgang Gaa, nor the kennel Gruntenblick. Is there something specific you need to know? I would be happy to help you :D

@Stifler, Magic Boys tail is not docked, where did you see that?

Investigations show that not docking tails may lead to less spinal illnesses when the dog is older. It has however not been completely proved.


Steve
 

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BurningRiver said:
With boxers, moderation is key. Yes, the stop should be noticeable, but it shouldn't be a pit.

Sorry--I just realized that this portion of my post could be misread. When I mention "pit" I wasn't referring to any of the pit bull breeds, rather, I was using it to mean "hole" or "crater".
 

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KingAlano said:
Another thing I forgot to mention is that I once stumbled on a website about American Bulldogs and protection work and big-game hunting, and it said that the most effective dogs in those ways were under one hundred pounds and had a muzzle length of at least 2.5 to 3 inches.

Would that assertion on muzzle length apply to Boxers as well, you think?
American Bulldogs are a bit different than boxers in that their standards are described much differently than ours is. With boxers, overall balance is paramount, so you'll never read any part of the standard that gives exact measurement to any part of the dog's body. Instead, we're given fractions. Our standard states that the muzzle should be a 1/3 the length of the skull.

Here is the excerpt on head from the American Boxer standard:

Head: The beauty of the head depends upon the harmonious proportion of muzzle to skull. The blunt muzzle is 1/3 the length of the head from the occiput to the tip of the nose, and 2/3rds the width of the whole head (from tip of nose to occiput). The head should be clean, not showing deep wrinkles (wet). Wrinkles typically appear upon the forehead when ears are erect, and are always present from the lower edge of the stop running downward on both sides of the muzzle.
Yes, if the muzzle gets too short, it does hinder the dog's ability to do his/her job. While the shorter muzzle may be more appealing, we need to be careful to breed to the standard and not create dogs that look nice, but can't breathe while they're doing their job.
 
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