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I see the photo; the tail does look docked, but actually it's just curved back behind the body. If you look very closely, you can see a smidge of the field showing through the bend in the tail. :)
 

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Jennifer,

I found the photo also, the tail is not docked. The photo makes it look like that, it is just curved behind the dody. :)
 

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Eurobox,

Please excuse my critique, but the photos you show (page 1) of Shuztdienst with the dog on concrete or sand near walls is anything but professional. The third photo of the dog jumping towards the trainer with a wall right behind them, and then having to land on concrete or sand is something I can not understand. This has to be practiced on grass.
 

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Quando said:
Eurobox,

Please excuse my critique, but the photos you show (page 1) of Shuztdienst with the dog on concrete or sand near walls is anything but professional. The third photo of the dog jumping towards the trainer with a wall right behind them, and then having to land on concrete or sand is something I can not understand. This has to be practiced on grass.
Ouch!! Those pics are of my breeders dog and have nothing to do with me. She practices in Russia, so I'm not sure of the difference. I know it is a 'training club' that they bring the dogs to, and I have seen all breeds there (Rottie, GSD, Boxer).

That did sound judgmental by the way.

Are you certain that it has to be practiced on grass in every country?

"Anything but professional" seems very harsh considering my breeder is not here to defend herself. She works very hard with her dogs health testing, training and showing. Please keep the attacks to yourself.

I am very proud of my pup's mom.
 

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Hello Eruobox

(BurningRiver, no you are not adding fuel to the fire as I believe that this is an issue that should be discussed, as it is extremely important.)

This by no means a “personal attack”. I did not criticise you, your dog or your dog’s mom. I believe that this is a forum to discuss everything and all about boxers. Posters on the forum are of all types and all interests but we all have one thing in common, we love boxers.

I have seen harsher comments about breeders, some of the comments only “hear say”, I am commenting on photos I have seen.

No matter why we own a boxer, family dog, training, obedience, trailing, sports and or Schutzhund, we also have one thing in common and that is the utmost safety of our dogs. Testing them for HD, heart and Spondy for example is not only to understand their medical condition but to also understand to what extent the dogs can be “stressed”. What I mean by this is if your Dog has HD C then you would not let it jump, if your dog has Heart 2 you would probably not run 10 miles with it, would you? Having these results will help you to adjust the training and the dogs life style in general accordingly. If we humans train in a Gym then the trainer also asks us about our medical condition and will talk to us and will design the fitness plan accordingly, why would we want to treat our dogs differently?


The surface and surroundings are of utmost importance when training “Suchutzdienst”. And to be very honest, I have never seen this done on concrete or with a wall a matter of yards behind the trainer and dog, and why not, because the dog can be seriously injured. The dogs run full speed at the trainer; jumps and bites into the arm. Depending on the training the trainer will either have the dog “drop” immediately or will let it swing (on the arm) around the body of the trainer. If the dog does not fully connect to the arm it may continue forward and pass the trainer, so you don’t want a wall behind it, having said this I am not even considering what would happen if the dog is swung around the trainer and what might happen if a wall is behind them, this is only common sense And no, Schutzdienst is not practiced on concrete, the dog can be injured if it falls, cuts, bruises and broken bones.

You asked if it should be practiced on grass in every country. IMO this has nothing to do with the country but has only to do with the safety of the dog, so no only on grass.

I commented on the photos and I am still of the same opinion, the way Shutzdienst it is being done on these photos is dangerous for the dog. I apologise if my critique came across as being a “personal attack” it was not designed to be that way, I am sure that you have every reason to be proud of your pup’s mom :)

If the site administrators feel that my comments were too personal then I will be more than happy to correct for the future.

Cheers
 

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Understood, and knowing that there's a difference between training and proofing a dog, I understand that you'd want to train in the safest environment possible. . . But I know that they don't necessarily limit proofing for K9 units to the field, rather, they proof them in a variety of areas to make sure that they're going to perform the job when the need arises. It's a given that a dog training for ring sport would have a different program than a dog training for police work, and I do see your point with regards to Schutzhund. I guess the underlying question here revolves around what purpose the dog in the pictures above is being prepped for.
 

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Hello Burning,

Thanks for your note, I must agree I have not seen much K9 training, I have seen some when it comes to protection work, but these have also been trained on grass for the reasons I have mentioned. I can only assume that when a K9 needs to react to a situation it will do so because it is ordered to do so, irrespective of the fact if it has been trained on grass or concrete. I can only also assume that police will do what ever they can to assure their dogs safety when training.

Again, my comments refer to the photos of a Boxer.

Maybe we have some police on this forum; it would be interesting to hear their opinion.
 

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This is an interesting and informative post - I know nothing of Schutzhund (never even heard of it).

Eurobox - I'm not trying to be rude (so please don't take it that way), but I don't think he personally attacked you at all. He didn't say anything negative about you, your dog, your dog's mom, etc. Just questioned the manner of "training".

Also, when you display a photo on the internet, you're opening yourself up for critique whether you want it or not.

I guess I posted this because I don't want to see you upset about it. I honestly get the feeling that absolutely no harm was intended.

:)
 

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Well Eurobox, I guess that you are a person that finds it hard to accept an apology. I find it sad that you will not let anyone else express their opinion or share their views.

Good Luck
 

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Hi Quando,
To my knowledge, much of the bulk of training for police work *does* occur on grass, for the exact reasons you've stated above, but I also know that much is practiced "in the field" as well so as to proof the dog. For example, I know that many train on various surfaces for cadaver dogs to be sure that they can handle the task of rummaging through toppled buildings during their searches.

Here is a photo training on sand:


In a gymnasium:


Concrete:




Snow:
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
Newcastle said:
The Boxer underbite is specifically designed to have the best holding power. If you put a sheet of paper between your fingers in the form a level bite, where the teeth (your fingertips) meet evenly and have someone try to pull the paper out, it won't be too difficult. If, on the other hand, your fingers form an underbite, where the bottom teeth come in front of the top teeth, it's much more difficult to pull the paper out.
I think as a catch dog, the Boxer was used primarily in hunting boar, and the pig would be secured by the ear by the dog. And the analogy to holding paper is very apt in this respect.

But securing a human arm or leg is another matter.

Also, are protection dogs supposed to hold on? Isn't that considered a big problem in that field (especially with, say, Rotts)? One would want a dog that bites and releases and then turns its attention to the master, awaiting further commands.

And I cannot imagine that the Boxer mouth would be conducive to biting quickly multiple times, as Belgian Mals are famous for.
 

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King,

I think the best thing to do is for you to compare both races when they practice Shutzdienst. All dogs are trained (Schutzdienst) to bite and let go when the owner commands it to do so, or commands it to do something else. All of the boxers in out group are trained to do the same. If this is not working then either the trainer is not doing his job or the owner.
 

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KingAlano said:
Also, are protection dogs supposed to hold on? Isn't that considered a big problem in that field (especially with, say, Rotts)? One would want a dog that bites and releases and then turns its attention to the master, awaiting further commands.

And I cannot imagine that the Boxer mouth would be conducive to biting quickly multiple times, as Belgian Mals are famous for.
I'm not sure if I understand the question correctly, but they're never, ever supposed to bite repeatedly! They're supposed to bite and hold and not let go until they're released by their handler.

Someone (a trainer? my father?) once called the act of biting or chomping on the arm repeatedly "piano biting". Piano biters are a huge liability in that 1) they do more damage and 2) the perpetrator is more likely to get away as the dog continues to readjust his/her grip. You can work some of them through this, but only if it's a psychological issue. Others may do it because of incorrect bite conformation (ie: if the bite is not correct in structure, the dog will feel as if they are losing their grip and therefore feel as if they constantly need to readjust).
 

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Jessica, you're correct about the piano biting. In the Schutzienst trainings I've watched, it's a strong bite, and the dog does not let go. The cuff they practice with is about the size of a man's wrist, and I imagine that's what they go for and hang on to until released. So you have a perpetrator who has a 70 lb. (or more) animal hanging from their arm, who is fearless in this situation and will not release until told to do so.

I've watched German and Dutch Shepards do this training, along with the Belgian Mals. If the any of these dogs don't have the correct bite, or breeding, they can't hang on. Breeders can tell, very early on, whether the dog has it or not. The Boxers I watched, were so driven, and strong, they'd hit the cuff deep in their mouths, and lock their jaw. It's almost as if they'd swallow the thing if given the chance. They seem to hit harder, and faster than the other breeds.

I think the Boxer's tendency is to circle and hold, rather than rush in and bite like a Doberman. When they're trained properly to go in and bite & hold, it is awesome.

Ann WI
Gus-Boxer CGC
 

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Discussion Starter · #60 ·
owenowlsnest said:
The Boxers I watched, were so driven, and strong, they'd hit the cuff deep in their mouths, and lock their jaw. It's almost as if they'd swallow the thing if given the chance. They seem to hit harder, and faster than the other breeds.

I think the Boxer's tendency is to circle and hold, rather than rush in and bite like a Doberman. When they're trained properly to go in and bite & hold, it is awesome.
It sounds like the kind of behavior one would expect out of a catch dog for wild boar hunting. That would be a cautious dog, maybe a little more nervous than a shepherding dog would be, but when it engaged it would bite and hold for dear life.

The thing is this is also true for American Bulldogs, but I have heard some disparaging things about the AmBulldog as a protection dog because one can 'lose dog' more easily with that kind of independent-thinking hunting breed. But it would seem that the Boxer has the hunting instincts along with obedience, the best of both worlds.
 
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