[chip18]

Training Management and Leadership and how "I" got there! And how I learned that being really good at the first two "does not" automatically equate to the third!

Boxers are my first luv and my Struddell was the light of my world! Boxers are for the record "not" an easy dog to train! A professional trainer of K9's once said "I can train three GSD's in the time it takers to train one Boxer!"

Pros don't have time to fool around with "Goofy!" They need to turn around a dog fast! I spent many hours trying to find a single (American Line) k9 Boxer in the US! I had a line on "one" but further research found that dog retired!

So I turned to the GSD forum K9 section and asked there and found one! It was sort of a mixed success! Boxer..yes...but it was not an American line it was a Euro! They are bigger and less "Goofy" I guess?? Never met one so I don't know?? Euros are used as K9's in uh Europe all the time so no mystery there! Still not a lot of them...but it counts!

At any rate that Boxer "was" (he passed last year) Cliff vom Grand Kevin. The point of that for me was finding a working K9 Boxer so mixed results there. After all they are "working dogs" today by and large there job in the US is being a family pet and at that they excel!!!

But back on point the "secret" to training a Boxer is that it takes a certain"touch." I train "tool" free, to me a tool is a filter between you and your dog! So no halt's or Gentle leaders or Prongs or E collars!

A "slip leash collar, your dog and you are all that is required, Train your dog, without a "tool/filter" and you will pay more attention to your dog! "know your dog."that's how you can get there! You will give the same command you've given time and time again with...mixed results but one day you will see the "wheels spin" and in that instant...they get it and from that point on..it's a piece of cake!

Had I been using a "tool" with Struddell I might have missed that moment?? So with her I learned I don't need tools. And the next 8 years it was all about life with my Boxer...pretty much home free!

So life was with my dogs was pretty easy and I "assumed" I was a good leader! I had training and management down pat but leadership...yeah not so much!!!:cry2:

How I learned that I lacked enough "leadership skills" came in the form of a Working Line Over Size (116lb) GSD with High Rank Drive (Pack Issues) and (to be developed???) Human Aggression aka Rocky! That's how I, learned the difference between Management and Leadership!

With such a beast, if you get your job half way right...he won't turn on you or members of his family....but everybody else is fair game! Me and my other Dominate male Gunther (Bull/Mastiff/APBT/Lab) found this out the hard way after living with Rocky for 7 months without issue!

All of this is important so that you understand, that my GSD is where I learned what "leadership" means!

This dog was turned around and made safe by me with the help of "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" so...if you want the short cut, you can check out Leerburgh and find that essay there!

If you want the long "course" and "wordy" explanations why that worked and why "I" think that's what you should do..stick around here!

I don't do Click and Treat, I don't use the term Alfa or Positive Only, I don't use Choke chains or Hard corrections!

Before I got Struddell, I had a Boxer/Pitt mix Stewie, he was a brilliant dog, who I sadly lost in an automobile incident,when I put him in a position for which he was 'untrained!" That was in Sept of 2001 and I still regret that to this day! But going forward I vowed that would never happen to a dog I had care of!

But in his short life Stewie taught "me" that a "SIT" and a "Sit" are not the same thing! One day on a walk, I was tired and turned to Stewie and said "SIT," he looked at me like he was going to cry and sat down! I was stunned! After that I realized that with dogs, your voice and infliction's are also a tool and it is a tool that needs to also be used properly! Struddell and Rocky benefited from that lesson!

I started this here:

http://www.boxerforums.com/general-boxer-forum/171298-someone-kicked-my-dog.html

These links... the first is my list of my standard "Dog Park" warnings:
http://www.boxerforums.com/1728673-post37.html

This is from one of the leading experts in the dog world
http://www.boxerforums.com/1729257-post38.html

For my purposes.. I'll 'assume" No dog Parks"...don't make problems for your self you have to "fix!"

But if you do and have a "Bad Day"...well I'll get to "my dog is reactive on leash" further down the road

 

[Berkshire45]

Thanks for this post, I am glad someone else has said it, Boxers (or at least mine) take a long time and a lot of effort to train. They are not "easy" although they are very intelligent. I have had my Boxer for 6 months and have trained her every day with a professional dog training company. People says she is well trained and are very impressed with her but I know she is a tough case.

I don't understand the comparison between the European and American boxers, I am in the UK so have a Euro version. She is very very friendly (ok excitable) around other dogs and all new people - she is absolutely so much fun, great with other dogs, never aggressive, just very very bouncy. As far as a working dog, we have dabbled in tracker training of which she was brilliant and also agility training.

She is 9 months and I would take her anywhere (on a lead) and be confident off lead in the woods and dog parks.

 

[chip18]

I don't understand the comparison between the European and American boxers, I am in the UK so have a Euro version.

No offense to Euro's meant or held by me! I only look at the facts!

Euro Boxers are K9 dogs in America, American line Boxers are not! I merely made an an observation and pursued an answer, that satisfied me.

I found these:
But no Boxers used??
Breeders of 'American Band Dawgs" American Bandogge Mastiff / Bandog Information and Pictures - United Canine Association
Technically that is what Gunther was those folks are free to use whatever dog of Mossler World they chose:
Molossers breeds (Molosser dogs, Molossers, Mastiff breeds)

"They" don't use Boxers in there line? as a whole? I found an answer to that question on Midguard Kennels, they listed Boxer attributes, speed, agility endurance but they don't use Boxers either?? (don't know that they knew of Euros???)The reason they cited for no Boxers..".the dogs are to "Goofy!"

Personally, I see that as an "asset" myself!

She is very very friendly (ok excitable) around other dogs and all new people - she is absolutely so much fun, great with other dogs, never aggressive, just very very bouncy. As far as a working dog, we have dabbled in tracker training of which she was brilliant and also agility training.
.

I don't doubt that at all! I have heard the same thing from other Euro owners on here!

Pm sent!

 

[chip18]

Difference between "Wait and Stay"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwQPjRe1_xo

This "not' something I have ever had an issue with...(or did I?) or thought about but it is a situation that folks need to be "aware of."

Pretty much as simple as that.

 

[bte]

Training Management and Leadership

But back on point the "secret" to training a Boxer is that it takes a certain"touch." I train "tool" free, to me a tool is a filter between you and your dog! So no halt's or Gentle leaders or Prongs or E collars!

A "slip leash collar, your dog and you are all that is required, Train your dog, without a "tool/filter" and you will pay more attention to your dog! "know your dog."that's how you can get there! You will give the same command you've given time and time again with...mixed results but one day you will see the "wheels spin" and in that instant...they get it and from that point on..it's a piece of cake

I don't do Click and Treat, I don't use the term Alfa or Positive Only, I don't use Choke chains or Hard corrections!

IMHO your only handicapping yourself by not using tools that can correct a problem.
And not to be picky but a slip lead is a tool.

(Without writing a book) Describe what you consider a "hard" correction?

 

[owenowlsnest]

Was Cliff from a breeder in Wisconsin?

 

[bte]

Was Cliff from a breeder in Wisconsin?

Yes, out of Von Bachbett Kennels

 

[chip18]

IMHO your only handicapping yourself by not using tools that can correct a problem.
And not to be picky but a slip lead is a tool.

True! But "I" believe that the fundamental basis for understanding your dog is found by "training" your dog to walk on a loose leash,in what "I" consider the right way! With... sigh...(taking your "valid" point into consideration) a minimum use of tools...hence a Slip Leash.

I reserve the right to use any tool, if needed depending on the dog. The problem with (using a tool) being a first resort, is that "most" folks that reach for a "checkbook" fix first is, many don't understand, that now they first need to understand how to use the tool properly and then "correctly" apply what they may or may not understand to there dog?

Why add a "step" is what "I" advocate!

But I'll give ground, we heard from the "master himself" Lou Castle, that the fastest and most humane way to train a dog is with the use of an E Collar!

He said that everything one needs to know in order to "properly" use an E collar can be found here:

How To...

Personally I disagree with him, but he has trained 1000's of dogs vs my handful! He has way more faith in the "average" pet owner than I do! And I have no need to "fix" a dog fast! But if someone does..now they know how that can be done with the "proper" use of the correct tool!

I read his "protocol" on crittering ie Cat v Dog. Personally I don't have the time! I train that with my dogs/puppies and again tool free (short drag leash) if needed! Long story short "Dog Never Chases the Cat...period" but he tells how he does it with the "proper use of an e collar."

"Crittering" in it self exemplifies the dept of understanding needed to "properly" use that tool! Above "Ave" only need apply...I'm out!

Lou, is a regular on the GSD forum and his contact info is on his website! But as I said he said all you know to know on E collars, is on the I listed site!

For me a slip leash is a lot less work!

 

[chip18]

(Without writing a book)

Describe what you consider a "hard" correction?

In the two years I've been on this board, no one has ever asked that before!I think most think that by my "tone" and my GSD, that I must be a "yank and crank" trainer??

Sorry folks your going to be disappointed! My hard corrections consist of a light pop on the head with the loose end of the leash, during an intense dog behind fences encounter to break focus with my GSD.

And other than that "tone of voice" and "demeanor!" My first Boxer/Pit mix taught me the difference between 'SIT" and 'Sit." An "occasional" light pop with a leash was pretty much all it took with those guys!

Struddel only wore a choke chain because I thought it looked cool! Pretty much "never" used it!

But in the interest of being brief and since a picture is worth a thousand words:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo

Folks should pay attention to what he says and take note of his demeanor! That would be hard to "explain" but you can "see" it here and yes he "uses" another "tool" at the end but yeah...he "knows" what he's doing!

But in the interest of being brief...for "me", I'll stop here!:cheers:

 

[owenowlsnest]

My seven year old male is an offspring of Cliff, and from Bachbett Kennel. He is also from a Finnish line. Good dogs. We also have his half sister.

Both used a prong collar in obedience class to start out. It was not a choke, so they just felt the prongs if they pulled too hard. So if they DID pull hard against the prongs they learned to stop. It was not like we (master) was popping their collar to control them.

 

[chip18]

My seven year old male is an offspring of Cliff, and from Bachbett Kennel. He is also from a Finnish line. Good dogs. We also have his half sister.

WOW seriously??? Those dogs are the rock stars in Boxer world! Serious freaking dogs! I'm waiting to unload on one of the members on the GSD forum! Yeah I'm the Boxer guy on there!

He said we treat our dogs like toddlers and implied they were "all" goofy!
For the "American" line dogs... yeah pretty much and that's why I like them! But they (Boxers) are all working dogs! And now a days there "job" is being a family pet and companion and they are all very good at it! And my Struddell was also a very good "wing dog" to my males, she never instigated an issue but if dog one had a problem, she was right there waiting to see what needed to be done!

Daddy always handled "situations" first!

So how are they in regards to people? My GSD is aloof at best and a rather..."intense" dog! I'm not looking for that with a Boxer! I want another happy ,people loving, goofy dog in my next Boxer! So I tend towards the "American lines" myself.

Both used a prong collar in obedience class to start out. It was not a choke, so they just felt the prongs if they pulled too hard. So if they DID pull hard against the prongs they learned to stop. It was not like we (master) was popping their collar to control them.

If you were expecting any protestations from me?? Sorry to disappoint! When used properly a prong "should" be used as you described!
It provides feed back to the dog.

Problem is (for most) it is a "tool" that takes skill and understanding to use! And if you use it incorrectly on a dog...that dog will "never" walk properly on a leash! Like an E collar a Prong when used correctly, can help train a dog quickly!

I understand most of the mistakes people make and how to best avoid them! I turned my WL OSD, High Rank drive, Human Aggressive, GSD into a dog that is now safe in public. And I did it without the use of tools, so that's what "I" advocate.

 

[chip18]

Loose leash training

This is in my view the "best" way to teach your dog to walk on a loose leash! Disregard the size of the dog it's the principle that is important! Slip lead leash is what I have found to be very effective. If you can get this done in this manner your well on your way to becoming your dogs leader!

If you combine this technique with the "advise" and the "demeanor" of "Jeff Gellman" above, then you can get the dog you want and not the dog you have!

Doesn't matter if you think you can't be "that guy"...you only have to "fool" your dog into believing you are! And let's face it, Boxers will believe anything

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gnwfZ7xv-E0 Forgot to add this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo

Be like Jeff!

 

[chip18]

"Jumping up"
As I said in the thread this links to this is advise from an expert in the field a skill that is easy to learn and transfer! My "knee" thing stopped my girl from jumping on me! It did not stop her from jumping on others! This is better!

http://www.boxerforums.com/1732857-post27.html

 

[chip18]

http://www.boxerforums.com/general-boxer-forum/171298-someone-kicked-my-dog.html

These links... the first is my list of my standard "Dog Park" warnings:
http://www.boxerforums.com/1728673-post37.html

This is from one of the leading experts in the dog world
http://www.boxerforums.com/1729257-post38.html

For my purposes.. I'll 'assume" No dog Parks"...don't make problems for your self you have to "fix!"

But if you do and have a "Bad Day"...well I'll get to "my dog is reactive on leash" further down the road

Sorry to add another Dog Park "warning" beware the owners! Nothing more to say here.

Dog dies after being shot at Bay Area dog park | News - Home

 

[chip18]

"The Place Command"
Why the “Place” Command is So Important and Your Dog Should Know It! : TheDogTrainingSecret.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE

I can't emphasize enough how important it is to teach your dog this command! This is your best tool for controlling the crazy company coming over Boxer "nuttiness" and other such ill behaviour<

I know many of us do/did the family and friends knocking on the door thing. Having learned more since Struddell, I now understand that "technique" is pretty much the equivalent of "stopping dog reactivity" by facing barking dogs behind a fence and telling your dog to behave! To much, to soon and the dog is way over threshold and they aren't listening!

I've found sources for much more information and I'am actually amazed and stunned! Turns out the things I advocate are the same things that "balanced trainers do!"

Balanced trainers tend to use more "tools" than I do but I don't have to turn out clients dogs fast. They will tell you the why and how of a "prong" or an "e collar." You'll understand that using one of these tells requires much more than simply purchasing them and going to town on your dog.

Most of us aren't in a hurry and most of our dogs are not wildly out of control! A few are and those are the dogs that will put the "owner" through the ringer! They can still be trained, I believe "tool" free "Slip leash" but owners of those dogs will really need to have their crap together!

So I've said plenty about the "Place Command" so now I'll just add this to the info above! Happy reading. :

The Magic Of Duration Work | The Good Dog Life Blog


Happy reading!:cheers:

 

[chip18]

Well I almost hate to post this. But I have to because yet again, I can't believe that "I" am the only one that can do it!

Loose leash walking as I posted is what I do.

We went to our friends to meet there new Boxers, as expected typical Boxer first time I saw him, but we were old friends already!!

We talked about the walk, dog pulls, they have deer, dog chases deer, almost lost him. It's a problem. We go for a walk, the dog pulls on leash, we walk a bit more. I say let me try.

I un do the clip, from the collar, fashion a noose and take the dog! Boom instant "no pull" nothing, we walk zero issues! He explains to me how the Deer chasing is a problem.

So we stop and talk, dog standing quietly by my side. I'm explaining to him how, yes that sounds pretty bad and most likely you will need an E collar and the Crittering protocol to stop it. But it's going to be kind of hard because where are you going to find a Deer to practice on??

It's at this point that I finally notice the "deer" chasing dog is standing quietly by my side but he's staring at something???

I look at the dog follow his gaze up the hill and lo and behold, two freaking deer standing 30 yards away staring at us??? I was stunned??? I say let's go and we move on, no muss, no fuss, no drama!

I had also been explaining how if you use a prong, it should look like (what we were doing) but he was already pretty sold on the loose leash thing and did not see the point of a prong collar.

Yet again another you tube moment blown! But on the other hand yet ,again if you can get loose leash walking down the way it's shown in the clip I linked. You can walk any dog on a loose leash!

 

[chip18]

"Jumping up"
As I said in the thread this links to this is advise from an expert in the field a skill that is easy to learn and transfer! My "knee" thing stopped my girl from jumping on me! It did not stop her from jumping on others! This is better!

http://www.boxerforums.com/1732857-post27.html

I'm adding a "new" technique to this thread on jumping.

It's from "Lucky Dog" he's pretty impressive! Soooo is how he handles jumping.

How To Stop Your Dog From Jumping On People... - Brandon McMillan Dog Trainer | Canine MindedBrandon McMillan Dog Trainer | Canine Minded

 

[heaterfj]

I have never used prong collars or anything similar. I rolled my pups on their on their back if they did anything inappropriate. Gently cause they were young. Then an "ah-ah" warning first. Now just an ah ah stops them next to the road. My dogs are awesome maybe I'm just lucky. They also walk on a loose leash when I take them on trails. All 3. Good dogs

 

[chip18]

OK first "please stop the Alpha Rolling thing!" No one "endorses' that any more! And yes Cesar comes colose but he's Cesar, that is not what people should take from his shows and even he has toned it down!!

So yeah you got lucky, by and large Boxers are not "hard dogs!" Do that with the wrong dog...and you best have "your crap together!"

That being said Ronin reminds me off my girl! And three?? Pretty cool.;however, you got there you did good!

 

[heaterfj]

Lol, I am lucky. I actually had someone stop me last weekend and ask how I had 3 that weren't pulling. They had a young female boxer. I am really interested in your take on training. You seem to know what you're doing, and I'm just asking to learn. My understanding on the 'Cesar Milan' thing is that dogs don't speak our language, so it's up to us to 'speak' theirs. And that how they communicate is to 'pin' when it's severe, or 'bite' (pinch on the neck), as a warning. With a verbal warning first. I understand this can easily be misconstrued and used improperly. You have to be calm and not ever angry. But what do you think of this theory?