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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

I would choose a different vet.  There are other pre-anesthetics that they can use other than ACE.  Sounds like he is saying "my way or the high way."  Not the kind of guy I'd want operating on my dog.
 
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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

i am getting that vibe too...    makes me sad.  but binga and bear's safety and health comes first.  i can't go on a reply of "i use it all the time".  

:cry:
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

Lose the vet for operation purposes. Maybe O.K. for regular office visits. I take no chances with our furkids.  :aua:
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

Yeah, sad as it is, maybe you should find another vet.
I asked our vet about ACE.  They said yes, they use it all the time.  I said OK, just don't ever use it on my dog.  Write it in big red letters across the front of his file, "NO ACE".  He asked why, I told him cause ACE kills boxers.  He looked at me like I was a little crazy, but he agreed.  Maybe you can just stress how important this is to you, if they still seem unconcerned, then switch.
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

I would have to agree and say find a new vet ASAP. Because they should respect your wishes and want to work with you on providing healthcare for you pet not against you. Who's to say there won't be other problems in the future with him doing things that you do agree with ?!
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

It is unfortunate that some still use it (there are several other options out there besides ace) and some think you are an idiot for bringing it up. Well I don't care what they think about me and if they think less of me for asking about use of Ace for my dog they aren't touching my dog ever! I had an the head of an emergency clinic challenge me about it and he told me I read too much.
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

I agree with everyone else, when I gave instructions to my vet about using ACE they said no problem and would put it on the front of her folder.  The next time I went in I asked if they had put in on her folder and they showed me that they had.  In my rescue package, I had an article to give the vet about ACE.
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

You should look around for a new vet. I personally do NOT want a vet who wouldn't listen to my concerns. it's your dog, and your money. you get the final say.
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

I think that it should not be a difficult thing....Your vet should respect your wish when it comes to a drug that there are other alternatives to use (Ace is not the only drug to prepare animals for general anesthesia) and it is one known to cause a possible side affect. It may be that your vet has used it for years without any problems.....The truth is I also used it for years without any problems and I still use it for certain things, but not as a pre-anesthesia medicine....The thing is if there has been information provided that a breed is sensitive to it, why take the chance?

The other side of the term " I use it all the time" is that is probably true also, but "all the time" is how many Boxers?  A general week for me is 4 surgeys a day....based on 20 a week....in those 20 none of them may be boxers......It may be safe to say that only 4 or 5 a year is a boxer.  The last Boxer that was spayed where I work is my own dog and that was 6 months ago.....So "all the time" can not say Boxers all the time!

The actual medical information given to us as doctors says......."On this drug, there is no conclusive proof or scientific studies for review. While it appears to be prudent to avoid acepromazine in the boxer, it is important to realize that acepromazine has been used widely in boxers with no problems and that adverse events are unusual."

There are reports of boxers dropping heart rates after routine doses of ace. This had been thought to be a problem in the United Kingdom of dogs that were related and had other underlying heart issues. The University of California at Davis Veterinary School put out a report some time ago that was sent to the AVMA, which was then sent to each States VMA, that said they had three individual boxers have reactions to ace...(respiratory arrest and drop in heart rate), none of these three boxers died....They did however feel that ACE was to be considered the cause.

The bad thing about this report is that it does not say "of how many"  if it is 3 boxers out of 3 boxers then that is high.....if it was 3 boxers out of 500 boxers then that is low.....

Your vet is right when treating an animal the "internet" can be a bad thing because people can come up with information to suit everything they want and find info that scares them to death about things that have been used for years without affects...BUT....this is not one of those times....If you could look the information up and the only place it could be found was on a Boxer Breeder web site or a Boxer "forum", then maybe there would be a reason to suspect there is more info out there or to try and medically prove it.....BUT.....It is provided by the AVMA and each state VMA, which your vet a should be a member....It does not get much more clear!!!!......

At the end of the day.....Can Ace be used safe in Boxers.....Probably so!!!!!!  It has been for years!  Do you want to risk your dog to try it out???  Probably not!!!!  And neither would I....   So, I say.....talk to your vet and if they dont like what you say.....find another for your surgery!!!!!
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

Don't these vets have books like the Handbook of Veterinary Drugs?  It's all in there about Ace and Boxers.  The vets should also be made aware of genetic problems in breeds like Shepards, Collies, Sheepdogs and Whippets.  The MDR1 gene makes them much more sensitive because it effects the blood-brain barrier.  The brain can't remove drugs like a normal dog.  Ace can be extremely dangerous in these cases.  An MDR1 test can be run, swabbing the dog's mouth, through Washington State University, College of Veterinary Medicine.  The Internist actually did an MDR1 test on our Boxer because his reaction to most drugs was so unusual.  It was negative, and a bit of a shot in the dark.  This might be more of a problem for a dog that is not a purebred.  

Ann WI
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

Go with your gut on this one Kelli, if you do not feel that your vet will honor your request not to use ACE, I would find another vet for surgery...Here's a story about what CAN happen.......Rhonda whelped a litter last summer and one of the pups was this lovely white female that she sold to a couple on a s/n contract. These people knew about ACE, so when they made the appt to get Lola spayed, they also 'ASSUMED" that the vet knew as well so didn't mention it....So the ACE was administered and Lola went into cardiac failure. They managed to save her, and it was determined that she had a heart problem that wasn't detected prior to surgery(may have just been murmer, don't know that).. Anyways Rhonda took the pup back, gave the couple another pup and started working on bringing Lola back to health...Lola is 9 mos now, and a lovely girl, BUT she will now be on heart meds for the rest of her life....Would this have happened if ACE hadn't been administered? Possibly, but now Rhonda is faced with the dilema, does she try and find a home for this girl due to her health?
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

ACE is acepromazine, a drug used for pre-anesthetic and tranquilizing.  

There is lots of information in veterinary literature regarding the use of acepromazine with Boxers (among other breeds).  This is a bit dated now, I posted it elsewhere a while ago, no doubt many of the handbooks/textbooks have been updated but I wouldn't expect any change in this information:

Giant breeds, as well as greyhounds, appear quite sensitive to the clinical effects of the drug, yet terrier breeds appear more resistant. Conversely, boxer dogs are predisposed to the hypotensive and bradycardiac effects of the drug.
Handbook of Veterinary Drugs
Second Edition, 1998
D.G. Allen, J.K. Pringle, D.A. Smith with K. Pasloske and K. Day
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Acepromazine may cause syncope in brachycephalic breeds. Boxers are reportedly very sensitive to the hypotensive and bradycardiac effects of acepromazine and even small doses should be used cautiously in this breed.
Psychopharmacology of Animal Behavior Disorders
1998
Nicholas H. Dodman, Louis Schuster
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Giant breeds and greyhounds may be extremely sensitive to the drug, while terrier breeds are somewhat resistant to its effects. Boxers are reported to be very sensitive to the hypotensive and bradycardiac effects of acepromazine....
Veterinary Drug Handbook
Third Edition, 1999
Donald C. Plumb
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Fainting and cardiovascular collapse has been reported to occur occasionally in all species of animal following the use of even low doses of acepromazine. In some cases it may have been due to administration to a hypovolaemic animal but in others it has not been explained. Some strains of Boxers are known for collapsing after a very small dose of acepromazine given by any route, and it has been suggested that this may be due to orthostatic hypotension or to vasovagal syncope.
Veterinary Anaesthesia
Tenth Edition, 2001
L.W. Hall, K.W. Clarke, C.M. Trim
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Acepromazine can cause syncope associated with high vagal tone and subsequent bradycardia; this occurs in brachycephalic breeds, particularly in Boxers.
Veterinary Pharmacology & Therapeutics
Eighth Edition, 2001
H. Richard Adams
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Boxers are known to be unduly susceptible to ACP [acepromazine], and occasionally respond to the drug by collapsing with profound hypotension and bradycardia.
Anaesthesia for Veterinary Nurses
2003
Elizabeth Welsh
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The side-effects of short term use of acepromazine include the following (Booth, 1988; Dodman,1998):
Hypotension (often accompanied by a compensatory tachycardia)
Bradycardia
Syncope, particularly in brachycephalic breeds, the Boxer being especially sensitive
Hypothermia
Currently posted on the website of the South African Veterinary Council
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In some dogs, particularly Boxers and other short-nosed breeds, spontaneous fainting or syncope may occur, due to sinoatrial block caused by excessive vagal tone.  An attack may be precipitated by acepromazine...
Currently posted on both of these websites (ace is called ACP in the UK):
Veterinary Medicines Directorate (UK; government agency of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)
National Office of Animal Health (UK)
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As Sharon said, there is some thought that ace is only an issue for dogs with underlying heart conditions - the problem is, it's estimated that at least 80% of the Boxers in the US have a heart problem.  Just because it hasn't yet been diagnosed doesn't mean it's not there.   Since there are other pre-anesthetic options that are just as effective and probably safer than ace, why take the risk?  

And I, too, would find another vet - it's one thing for a vet to use ace at a dosage and/or combination that they feel won't cause any issues; it's another thing entirely to ignore the wishes of the client when other options are available.
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

How Frustrating Kelli!
I understand how you feel, as when I took Ashley in for her pre-crop checks, I told them flat out..I do NOT want Ace used on my dog. I got the SAME response...."Oh..we safely use it in POST-op pill form on all Boxers, but not in injectible form"          ( Therefor leading me to believe that some how they still thought the medication was safe if given in a different dosage format. )
Um..NO...I think I just said NO Ace!!
How-ever, the vet did agree ( this is NOT the vet who does her regular care..he does not do crops ) to mark her chart, and use "other things" to keep her sedated. Ok, all went well, till I got a copy of her chart, and it stated..that I was ADMANT, and DIFFICULT, that they did not use Ace in any form...darn skippy I am. I am paying them over 500 dollars to do this surgery..and feel, even if the icindent of heart failure may be unusual in "Their" practice", I will NEVER risk my pups health.
LOL..I must have checked 5 times prior to surgery that her chart was marked, but to be honest, will never let this office near my dog again..I don't feel anyone should be marked as a "difficult" owner for simply stating their preferences, especially when there are so many options for your dogs care.
Hoping all goes well, and..please like everyone else stated..check around for a Vet who listens, and doesn't make you feel poorly for loving your pet  enough to check this out.
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

I asked my vet about ACE at one of Are's check ups. She said they don't use it at all in their office. It's to easy for something to go wrong. I was really happy about that. Until we got a Boxer I had never even heard of ACE. But through the magic of all my fellow boxer moms and dads, I'm well aware of it now. Thank the board for that.
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

Wow even in Thailand the vet knew right away not to use ACE on boxers. As soon as I brought it up he said, "yes I know and we will use something else."

Get another vet you feel good with.
 
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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

Thank you for all your responses.  I am going to tell him for sure NO ACE.  Like Sharon said I know there are other things he can use...  he had the attitude like "he was the vet and I didn't know what I was talking about".  I actually felt kinda dumb the way he was talking to me about it.  

I mean if I read that ACE was bad for boxers on JUST a boxer forum that is one thing.  But I have read everything I can regarding ACE and it ALL mentions boxers!  How can he not understand that.

He said I could choose to not have them use it...   but after all this...    I think I will be looking for another vet.  At least for the surgeries.  I am not taking any chances with my dogs.  

Thanks again...   this is such a difficult subject.  Any surgery you have is going to involve risks.  But the more risks you can avoid the better.
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

Can ACE cause health problems after the surgery or is it only at the time of the surgery? Jasmine was spayed 2 Friday's ago and when I went in I also asked the vet about ACE (Banfield Vet) and he said they use it all the time (even on Boxers).  He stated she could have the same reaction to any of the other meds and the only way to not have a risk would be not to do the surgery.  So to make a long story short Jasmine had the surgery (w/ ACE) and is completely fine... but now I'm worried after reading this.  Help!  8O
 

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Re: vet frustrations regarding ACE... so confused!

Sounds like you need to find another vet.  I've told our vet not to use ACE, did it before Charlie was fixed.  I am gonna double check next time I'm down there that it's written on both of mine's files just in case.
 
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