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Discussion Starter #1
I'm just curious, really. We talk often on this and other forums about finding a responsible breeder, what that means and why it's important. We discuss health testing, what the results mean, what to ask for, what different points of view there are on the various necessity and results of the tests. We lambast "puppy mills" and "BYBs" and pretty much anyone who doesn't breed the way we think they should breed.

In light of all this, I have to wonder -- why do people who have access to all of this information, and seem to understand the importance of purchasing from a responsible, conscientious breeder, go ahead and buy puppies from breeders who aren't doing everything "we" think they should be doing? Not truly careless breeders, but those who only do half the recommended testing, or who sell "rare white" or "black" Boxers, or who sell "show prospects" but never show their own dogs.

Is it that these things really aren't important to buyers? Do you see "completely tested" on a website and assume that's the truth, even though only a portion of the recommended tests are listed? Do you see owner testimonials and assume that means the breeder is excellent? Is it simply that these less-than-stellar breeders typically have puppies available, and you don't want to wait the several months to a year it might take for a puppy from a responsible breeder?

It can't be price, because more often than not puppies from a "less-than-stellar" breeder cost more than puppies from a responsible breeder. The health guarantee isn't usually as good, either -- some are longer in duration, but are structured and weighted toward the breeder so that 99.9% of the buyers would never utilize it.

So, what's the real reason? When you're looking at Breeder A, who does everything we recommend and more, and at Breeder B, who does some of what we recommend but doesn't do some other important stuff, what makes you choose Breeder B over Breeder A?

(And this is not a judgment or condemnation. Odds are most of the puppies from Breeder B will make good pets and live typical lives -- of course, the same is true about the majority of the puppies from "puppy mills" or "BYBs". I'm not talking about a difference in "reputation", either, where Breeder A and Breeder B are doing the same things, and one has been more successful than the other in terms of the show ring or whelping box. There is a definite difference between the policies and practices of the two breeders.)
 

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Breeder A

Doesn't breed very often
When they do breed, don't always have puppies available to pet homes
May have a very long waiting list
Is overly "picky" about who they will sell a puppy to

Breeder B

Breeds more often
Usually has puppies available to pet homes
May have a shorter waiting list or no waiting list at all
Are not as "picky' as to who they sell a puppy to

In general it is easier and more convenient to buy a puppy from Breeder B. There are more Breeder B's than there are of Breeder A's . All puppies need homes, whether they came from breeder A or B. None of the puppies asked to be born. The notion that if people stopped buying from breeder B, breeders would stop breeding is a load of BS because people will never stop buying from them.

Health Guarantees: IMO, unless a puppy dies, a health guarantee is just a worthless piece of paper. Once that puppy is home it is family no matter what happens. Who returns a puppy like it's a handbag or a pair of shoes?

So, I guess it is just easier and more convenient to buy from Breeder B

:)
 

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My answer may not be exacly what you are looking for because I didn't have the knowledge of ALL the differences between type A and type B breeders at the time. I just didn't do my research..


Rocky is my first boxer and I simply didn't know any better at the time. I wasn't educated on the multiple health issues boxers may have or may develop later down the road. I wasn't educated on the importance of purchasing from a TRUE reputable breeder. I just knew that I wanted a boxer puppy and started looking in the newspaper. When talking to Rocky's breeder in person it was obvious all he cared about was making money. But I fell instantly in love with him. His breeder even made the statement "When he is mature you could stud him out for $1000 because of his color." I didn't care about that. I wasn't getting a boxer for breeding purposes. I was getting one for companionship! Then later down the road we decided to get involved in agility and obedience. NOW I know I would rather have a well bred and well structured dog for these types of activities. I would rather have some knowledge about his heart, hip structure, longevity, etc. I don't have ANY information about his lineage.

Back to the breeder comment: Rocky has never been bred and never will be. Everything I have learned from reputable breeders, creditable websites, etc does make me realize that a little bit of money isn't worth bringing poorly bred puppies in the world who have ZERO health testing in their line, unknown temperments, bad conformation (possibly even mixed breeds). Honestly, it scares the crap out of me knowing that he came from a line of dogs who hasn't been health tested.

Don't get me wrong! ;) I love this boy to death and would do anything for him! He isn't treated any differently because of his lineage. He is one of the most spoiled boxers I know, but I do have some valid concerns.

With all that said ... I am one who took everything I learned seriously! :) I have been researching breeders for at least 6 months trying to figure out who I want to purchase my next puppy from LOL. Even though I have no immediate plans of getting a pup, I want to make sure my next puppy comes from a good line of conformation, health, temperment, and longevity!
 

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Are you asking to understand the thought process that goes into selecting a byb over a more reputable one or what makes one reputable breeder more worthy than the other?
 

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Breeder A

Doesn't breed very often
When they do breed, don't always have puppies available to pet homes
May have a very long waiting list
Is overly "picky" about who they will sell a puppy to

Breeder B

Breeds more often
Usually has puppies available to pet homes
May have a shorter waiting list or no waiting list at all
Are not as "picky' as to who they sell a puppy to

In general it is easier and more convenient to buy a puppy from Breeder B. There are more Breeder B's than there are of Breeder A's . All puppies need homes, whether they came from breeder A or B. None of the puppies asked to be born. The notion that if people stopped buying from breeder B, breeders would stop breeding is a load of BS because people will never stop buying from them.

Health Guarantees: IMO, unless a puppy dies, a health guarantee is just a worthless piece of paper. Once that puppy is home it is family no matter what happens. Who returns a puppy like it's a handbag or a pair of shoes?

So, I guess it is just easier and more convenient to buy from Breeder B

:)
^This...
 

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Oh, one more thing.
I don't know if this is a NJ thing or a regional thing, but when I did contact Breeders from the A group - most of them don't do the recommended health testing anyway because "they know their lines"

:)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Health Guarantees: IMO, unless a puppy dies, a health guarantee is just a worthless piece of paper. Once that puppy is home it is family no matter what happens.
That's very true in many cases. Some breeders -- more of them are in group A, but not all of them -- do not require you to return the dog in order to 'activate' the health guarantee. I personally think any guarantee that requires return of the dog before any compensation is given is completely worthless, and is set up to ensure that the breeder will almost never have to honor their guarantee. The vast majority of people will not return their dog after even a few weeks, much less months or a year, and breeders know this.

Are you asking to understand the thought process that goes into selecting a byb over a more reputable one or what makes one reputable breeder more worthy than the other?
To understand the thought process -- not so much about selecting a BYB over a responsible breeder, but choosing let's say a half-responsible breeder over a fully-responsible one. (And, frankly, to figure out if it's even worth educating people about responsible breeders, if they don't bother to buy from one anyway.)

I don't know if this is a NJ thing or a regional thing, but when I did contact Breeders from the A group - most of them don't do the recommended health testing anyway because "they know their lines"
I would not consider those breeders to be in the A group -- they are firmly B group breeders. :)
 

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I guess I'm not sure why you are asking. You said, "why do people who have access to all of this information, and seem to understand the importance of purchasing from a responsible, conscientious breeder, go ahead and buy puppies from breeders who aren't doing everything "we" think they should be doing?"

In asking that, are you asking specific people here or just assuming that some of us may understand this way of thinking? Otherwise, if we aren't the type of people that did this very thing, then how can we guess why people would make that decision?

My main assumption is that people either buy from the "right" type of breeders, or don't. If they don't, they either don't know better or don't care.
 

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(And, frankly, to figure out if it's even worth educating people about responsible breeders, if they don't bother to buy from one anyway.)
This last statement kind of confused the topic for me (part of your response to why you started the thread). Because, to me, educating people about responsible breeders goes hand in hand with educating people regarding the health concerns, general breed standards. All of this is in the hope to continue to preserve the breed (health, temperment etc.) Its hard to do one without the other so I would think the decision to continue educate people is more related to the passion an individual has for the breed. Its not too different from people who work in shelters who continue to educate people about the responsibility, (time, money etc) it is to own any pet. These people aren't going to stop educating people just because they have people return pets for reasons like "don't have time" and "don't have money" - They will continue to educatate people in the hopes that it make a difference - even if it is just for one animal.

Also, (more directly related to the original post), I have to agree with Gypsiemouse reasons and add to the "Breeder B not being as picky as Breeder A" - That is something so many members of this site say all the time and was discussed at length in a recent post so I won't review all of the reasons but they included not having fenced in backyards and/or being first time boxer owners. To add to that, there are some requirements in contracts of some breeders that I don't agree with; they include requirements of raw feeding, vaccination and flea and tick control restrictions etc. - - There are some things that I want the option of choosing for an animal that lives in my own home and for which I am responsibile for.
 

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If you don‘t mind me asking does this mean you would not by a black boxer again? (meant to qote mom2rocky)
You mean a seal brindle? There is no such thing as a black boxer ;)

Of course I would!! I absolutely LOVE Rocky's color! Besides, there are SOME reputable breeders who have seal brindles such as http://ehappytails.com/ourdogs_Cole.shtml . There is another breeder who I know of that has a champion seal brindle, but I cannot locate the site to show you a photo.

My next boxer will most likely NOT be a seal though. I am possibly looking into european lines and am thinking dark brindle or fawn.
 

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You mean a seal brindle? There is no such thing as a black boxer ;)


Yes…I know NO black. It is rather confusing :doh: to me actually but as I recall it is repeatedly explained on here that a ‘sealed’ or ‘reverse’ brindle is visible. Not something you just notice in the right lighting. Or am I wrong? My impression was you should be able to see the brindle striping with or without light. I think it was Newcastle that said brown hair or a sheen doesn’t qualify?
So I assumed Max and Rocky do not qualify as sealed?:huh:
 

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Honestly, I don't know the correct answer to that. Maybe Rocky isn't purebred then? He has some brown sheen and some brown areas on his neck, shoulders, and you can see it in well lighted areas. In all honestly, I don't know if he is purebred since I bought him from a BYB and do not know his line history... which is another reason why I will never support a BYB again :) But at this point it really doesn't matter to me personally. I can't change his pedigree. I love him regardless :)
 

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Honestly, I don't know the correct answer to that. Maybe Rocky isn't purebred then? He has some brown sheen and some brown areas on his neck, shoulders, and you can see it in well lighted areas. In all honestly, I don't know if he is purebred since I bought him from a BYB and do not know his line history... which is another reason why I will never support a BYB again :) It really doesn't matter to me personally. I can't change his pedigree. I love him regardless :)
Phew…glad I am not the only one confused!!!:disgusted: And I feel the same. I love Max :hrtbeat: and you know I am a member of the Rocky Fan Club. :hrtbounce:
 

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I am a little confused as well. Is breeder A responsible and breeder B half responsible?

To understand the thought process -- not so much about selecting a BYB over a responsible breeder, but choosing let's say a half-responsible breeder over a fully-responsible one. (And, frankly, to figure out if it's even worth educating people about responsible breeders, if they don't bother to buy from one anyway.)
If we remove everyone who has selected a byb or rescue as those do not fall into the A B category you are interested in, I am guessing those in the B category are the one’s you are trying to determine worth your time to educate?
Sorry this whole level’s of breeders thing is new to me so its all a tad confusing.
:cry_baby:
 

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Well said Gypsie Mouse I agree
 

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Actually being registered to me means nothing. I have them spayed or neutered so the papers are pretty useless. If I were a breeder then of course they would be. *shrugs*
 

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I ended up buying from a 'less than steller' breeder even after doing all the research.... I still bought from a decent breeder (wouldn't consider them a BYB, but not the best breeders either), but not the one I really would have liked to have bought from. My reason was because it was the perfect time for me to get a puppy (out of school, and no job) and the reputable breeder I had picked out was not planning on even having another litter any time in the future. Impatience on my part... but if I would have had to have wait on the reputable breeder, I wouldn't have had time for raising a puppy. I couldn't be happier with Deacon... he's extremely smart, beautiful, and has an amazing personality. I hope he lives a very long and healthy life... but now that I have the boxer fever out of my system (I'd been wanting one for years)... I won't be buying a puppy again unless it is from the breeder I had picked out. Or a dog from a rescue :) Hope I don't get bashed =/
 

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There is more to a reputable breeder than health testing, I am never quite sure if we mean reputable or ethical, or both?

Health tested does not mean you will automatically have a healthy pup, it does however tell me that the breeder as taken every possible step to minimize, without any guarantees, health problems. Quando is our second dog from the same breeder. We have had Quando tested for heart, hips and spondylosis, (we always have our dogs tested) even though we bought him from a reputable breeder we still wanted to understand his health “situation”. We liked him when we first saw him, when we picked him up 10 weeks we had no idea what his hip, heart and spondylosis condition would be. As it happens his heart score is 0, his hip score is A, and his spondylosis score is 0, so we are very happy. One of his brothers has a hip score of C and a spondylosis score of 1. We were just lucky, but it shows you that no matter how much effort a breeder puts into health testing, not all pups will have the best scores, even in the same litter.

The three tests cost me about 700 dollars.

I am surprised when I read postings from people here on the forums asking how to build up boxer body muscle, and these are then told that a good way to build up muscle is to strap the dog to a 40 lbs sledge. Some of you do agility, some work with their boxers, some bike and hike, yet the owners themselves don’t have their dogs tested. You may find one day that the dog pulling a sledge or running next to a bike will drop dead because of a heart condition, or doing agility or working the dog may cause serious hip and spondylosis problems only because you do not understand the health condition of your own dog because it was never tested.

If the worst then comes to the worst, the breeder is then bashed for having sold you a pup from dogs that weren’t tested. Yet the owner has never spent the time to have its dog tested? A (your) dog with a heart condition or bad hips can still live a long and happy life as long as you understand its condition.

We dog owners are just as much responsible for understanding ours dogs health condition as a breeder is for breeding health tested dogs.

I have a personal relationship with Quandos breeder and that means a lot to me. We chat every month; we email at least one a month, I keep her posted on how is developing and we meet up at least once a year. She is a valuable source of information; I can call her at anytime if I have questions or queries, she is my expert on all boxer related issues, she has become a friend. This is at least part of my understanding of a reputable breeder.

I don’t criticise people who have bought a pup from a breeder that hasn’t health tested, it can happen, why some may buy from “one of these” is that person choice.

A reputable breeder for me is also one that breeds against standards, that is hard work and the breeder has to research a lot to find the right stud. Don’t underestimate the time, work and expenses that go into that research. If I buy a boxer a want a boxer, it’s as simple as that. Then again I don’t criticise a person who buys a mix, we still all love our dogs, no matter what they are.

There are the also the “cultural” issues. I would not consider a breeder reputable who insists that my pup should be neutered or spayed (please no more discussions on this, just wanted to give me input on this to this thread).

At the end of the day I guess everyone has their own idea or perspective on what a reputable breeder is.

We have no intention of breeding Quando, just couldn’t be bothered. He is health tested, he has passed his ZTP. Would I qualify as a reputable breeder if we did decide to breed?
 
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