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Quando, maybe I haven't stated this on this specific forum, but we are planning on having Rocky health tested in the spring/summer. He isn't quite 2 years old yet so I was holding off until he is fully mature and I am finished with college. I already have most everything planned out to whom I am renting the holter from, what vet we are having his doppler performed by. I still need to locate a vet for his hip analysis/xrays. Of course if he was showing the slighest sign of something being wrong (limping, tiring easliy, etc) he wouldn't be doing agility. I have my boys best intrest in mind :) I have him in preferred classes when doing trials so it is easier on his joints. This means he is jumping 20" in AKC trials and 16" in NADAC. Both heights are much lower than if I had him in regular classes and he had to jump at his full height. One reason I do this is beacuse I haven't had him tested yet.. and he isn't fully mature. When training he jumps 20 inches. Our trainings are kept short and are not over exerting. He gets more of a workout when he is at the dog park running VS agility training :)
 

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Discussion Starter #22
There have been people on this forum over the years who have done what I'm describing, but I wasn't really thinking of anyone in particular -- it happens on every forum I've been on.

Because, to me, educating people about responsible breeders goes hand in hand with educating people regarding the health concerns, general breed standards. All of this is in the hope to continue to preserve the breed (health, temperment etc.)
Well, yes, but if pet buyers ignore the information about responsible breeders, wouldn't it be better to focus educational efforts on the breeders? How is educating a pet buyer who doesn't pay any attention and buys from an "irresponsible" breeder doing anything to benefit the breed?

Its hard to do one without the other so I would think the decision to continue educate people is more related to the passion an individual has for the breed. . . . They will continue to educatate people in the hopes that it make a difference - even if it is just for one animal.
That's also true, and it's why I continue to post on forums like this even after 13 years of discussion, debate, dissent, diatribe, and disregard. My theory has always been that if I can make one person reconsider buying from a careless breeder, or make one would-be breeder not breed their untested, unstable, unsound Boxer, then all the hours I spend on forums, e-mail, etc. is worth it. I only have a limited amount of free time, however, and if posts on forums are being ignored more often than not -- and those "less than stellar" purchases are being celebrated on the forums -- then perhaps my efforts are better spent in other venues.

I am a little confused as well. Is breeder A responsible and breeder B half responsible?
'

Yes.

If we remove everyone who has selected a byb or rescue as those do not fall into the A B category you are interested in, I am guessing those in the B category are the one’s you are trying to determine worth your time to educate?
The ones who would by from a "B" breeder, yes. (I know the "B" breeders are worth my time to try to educate, if they'll listen!)

Sorry this whole level’s of breeders thing is new to me so its all a tad confusing.
To be a little more specific -- there are about a half-dozen tests that are recommended for Boxers in breeding programs. Some of them are controversial, and some are debatable as to the degree of importance. In general, however, if we look at diseases that are present in more than half the population, or diseases that can considerably shorten lifespan (or both!), in Boxers we've got Aortic Stenosis, Arrhythmogenic Right Ventricular Cardiomyopathy, and Degenerative Myelopathy. The DM test is slightly controversial, because it doesn't tell us which dogs will develop DM, only which dogs are at risk of developing it. So even if we eliminate that, we have AS and ARVC.

Knowing that either can lead to exercise intolerance, fainting, lifelong medication, a shortened lifespan, or even sudden early death, why would a puppy buyer purchase a puppy from a breeder who tests for only one of those conditions? Why would they pay more for such a puppy?

Even getting away from health testing -- why buy from a breeder who sells "rare white" or "black/sealed" Boxers, knowing that a) whites are not rare and b) black/sealed is not a color in Boxers? (And pay half again as much for those puppies.) Why buy from a breeder who sells "show prospects" when their own dogs have never set foot in the ring? (Does adherence to the breed standard only matter if the buyer is interested in showing a dog? Don't people buy purebred dogs because of breed-specific traits, which are contained in the breed standard?) Why pay more for a "foreign pedigree" when the cost to the breeder is lower than that of many North American" breedings?

Health tested does not mean you will automatically have a healthy pup, it does however tell me that the breeder as taken every possible step to minimize, without any guarantees, health problems.
Yes -- and it seems that because health testing does not guarantee a healthy puppy, it becomes unimportant to most puppy buyers even when they know what testing is recommended and why. (And in that case, why not buy from a "BYB"? What difference does it make?)

At the end of the day I guess everyone has their own idea or perspective on what a reputable breeder is.
That's certainly true! I wouldn't meet some people's definition, for many reasons, but obviously I think I'm doing things responsibly. ;)

I've had this question rattling around in my head for years, but it's really been weighing on me lately. I appreciate the answers, and even the additional questions. It seems the answer is primarily that timing/ availability outweigh the finer points of responsibility -- which tells me that while we shouldn't (ever) stop educating, we should also focus on increasing the number of responsibly bred puppies produced, so that buyers don't have to wait two years for a puppy, or can readily find another breeder if the one they contact has terms that don't work for them.
 

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Maybe part of the issue is that there are buyers who differentiate between show boxers and pet boxers, who think that a show boxer is different to a pet boxer and that because “I only have a pet boxer I don’t need to invest time and money researching because I only want a “pet” boxer” (sorry if that sounded a little muddled), and who do not really recognise we are talking about the health of our dogs, and maintaining standards irrespective of why we want them.

What do you think a (some buyers) buyer would do? A reputable breeder lives say 20 miles east of a potential buyer and “another” breeder lives 20 mile west of the same potential buyer. The reputable one goes through all the health testing and whatever else is needed and wants say 1300 dollars for the pup. The other breeder doesn’t go through the testing and charges say 400 dollars. The distance to both is the same. The reputable breeder explains all the advantages of reputable breeding, but the breeder can’t give the buyer a guarantee that the pup will be healthy, but the risk will be “minimized”, and that the breeding is to ensure that the boxer standard is maintained. Then other breeder asks the buyer, “are you going to show, are you going to work the dog”? The buyer says “no I only want a pet". So the other breeder says “hey, don’t worry about the testing, I have never had any complaints, I breed healthy dogs, and it’s gonna cost you 700 bucks less, that’s a years worth of food”. So the buyer says “that’s a good argument”.

Of course you can buy from the “other” breeder and never have a health problem.

As I have posted before, although I do buy from health tested dogs, and the health testing goes back for generations, I still have my dogs tested. I don’t think it makes much sense for a buyer to walk away from a breeder that health tests without then wanting to understand the condition of the pup by the time it reaches two. My breeder also wants this information and is very thankful to get it as it might help with future breeding. (Another advantage with the BK and ZISPRO)

White boxers, black boxers, reversed brindles have a lot to do with standards. If a buyer is not concerned in maintaining standards then the colour of the dog is not important to that buyer.

Buying from a reputable breeder or from the “other” breeder, buying a boxer that is a boxer, buying a boxer to support standards, and spending the additional cash, and supporting and respecting the reputable breeder for everything they are doing to maintain standards and minimize health problems, is in my opinion a philosophy, it is a mind set and a passion and it is supporting a cause and has little to do with being educated or uneducated. A buyer has the choice.

Germany is not a country full of educated boxer buyers, many (the most) probably don’t even know the BK even exists, nor are they aware of health issues or standards.
 

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Quando, maybe I haven't stated this on this specific forum, but we are planning on having Rocky health tested in the spring/summer. He isn't quite 2 years old yet so I was holding off until he is fully mature and I am finished with college. I already have most everything planned out to whom I am renting the holter from, what vet we are having his doppler performed by. I still need to locate a vet for his hip analysis/xrays. Of course if he was showing the slighest sign of something being wrong (limping, tiring easliy, etc) he wouldn't be doing agility. I have my boys best intrest in mind :) I have him in preferred classes when doing trials so it is easier on his joints. This means he is jumping 20" in AKC trials and 16" in NADAC. Both heights are much lower than if I had him in regular classes and he had to jump at his full height. One reason I do this is beacuse I haven't had him tested yet.. and he isn't fully mature. When training he jumps 20 inches. Our trainings are kept short and are not over exerting. He gets more of a workout when he is at the dog park running VS agility training :)
Good for you, that is great to hear! The problem with some of the typical problems (heart, hips and spondylosis) is that they may not show until the dog is older. But if the owner had of known sooner about the potential problems then the owner could have taken corrective action earlier, if you know what I mean.

I guess you will need to understand what the results then mean. I think we score differently here than in the US. Our heart scores go from 0 to 4, so 0 means no heart problem, HD goes from A-D, D being the worst, and spondylosis from 0- 4, 4 being the worst. I am sure that Newcastle can help you interpreting the US scores when you have them.

If a dog has a B or even C hip score it doesn’t mean you will have a cripple by the time it reaches 5, but it will allow you to understand what is ok and what is not good for the dog as it gets older.

Good luck!
 

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I choose Breeder A, but if I were to ever choose B it would be a time thing. I'm waiting about 8-9 months for a puppy. I imagine many people don't want to wait that long. When they decide to get a puppy, I would think it's that they are ready NOW and want that puppy right now.

That's not to say I'm not ready right now and don't want a puppy yet, I do more than anything! But, the right puppy will be well worth the wait.
 

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My answer may not be exacly what you are looking for because I didn't have the knowledge of ALL the differences between type A and type B breeders at the time. I just didn't do my research..


Rocky is my first boxer and I simply didn't know any better at the time. I wasn't educated on the multiple health issues boxers may have or may develop later down the road. I wasn't educated on the importance of purchasing from a TRUE reputable breeder. I just knew that I wanted a boxer puppy and started looking in the newspaper. When talking to Rocky's breeder in person it was obvious all he cared about was making money. But I fell instantly in love with him. His breeder even made the statement "When he is mature you could stud him out for $1000 because of his color." I didn't care about that. I wasn't getting a boxer for breeding purposes. I was getting one for companionship! Then later down the road we decided to get involved in agility and obedience. NOW I know I would rather have a well bred and well structured dog for these types of activities. I would rather have some knowledge about his heart, hip structure, longevity, etc. I don't have ANY information about his lineage.

Back to the breeder comment: Rocky has never been bred and never will be. Everything I have learned from reputable breeders, creditable websites, etc does make me realize that a little bit of money isn't worth bringing poorly bred puppies in the world who have ZERO health testing in their line, unknown temperments, bad conformation (possibly even mixed breeds). Honestly, it scares the crap out of me knowing that he came from a line of dogs who hasn't been health tested.

Don't get me wrong! ;) I love this boy to death and would do anything for him! He isn't treated any differently because of his lineage. He is one of the most spoiled boxers I know, but I do have some valid concerns.

With all that said ... I am one who took everything I learned seriously! :) I have been researching breeders for at least 6 months trying to figure out who I want to purchase my next puppy from LOL. Even though I have no immediate plans of getting a pup, I want to make sure my next puppy comes from a good line of conformation, health, temperment, and longevity!
PM me please, I would like to know who you found in your state.
 

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Greetings to the group...first post here.

I dont have a boxer, or any dog yet, but my research has lead me to the breed. I m not interested in participating in competiotion, but want a skillfully and responsibly bred family member dog.

But...

To add to GypsieMouses A list problems, so far, these folks seem pretty unreachable! I ve contact 4 of them, and a local boxer club through their "welcome newbie" number.

Only one reply from one breeder whose not planning a litter in the forseeable future.

A bit discouraging, but i m not giving up.

For the less patient person whose lookimg for the same kinda dog as me, i can easily see the temptation to compromise on standards.

I just bet the quick buck artists are more responsive to potential customers.

I know im bettrr to be patient, though. Even if it takes a couple of years :-/
 

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I have been blessed to have two boxer girls in my life so far... and in all honesty did not know any better than here are puppies for sale so we got the first one,,, sick from the time she was five months old... but she was mine and so glad she was mine... we lost her when she was five and a half... the second Baby girl I have now is almost eight months,,, I thought well if I pay a lot of money for her she will be healthy,,, lmbo... wow so wrong,, with in ten days she had medical issues and now four months later and almost seven grand she is a beautiful eight month old baby girl and the second sweetest boxer in my life... and again I am so happy she is mine... regardless of medical issues because she is mine... and I love her like she is mine.... so like someone said A or B all of those puppies need homes... and I for one could never return a member of my family for a medical issues whether they be small issues or large,,, Like I would not try and return my sick child to the hospital,,,,, one we made a choice to be their family it is our job to be there till the end...
 

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Our first boxer, Lillie, was an impulse purchase from a pet store. I joined boxer forums and started doing my research on boxers and breeders AFTER we brought her home. She started presenting with health issues during her first year and was diagnosed with polysystemic arthritis at 18 months. By then, her right knee was damaged and she had TPLO surgery. We lost her this past January to Evans Syndrome, just two months shy of her 7th birthday. During her lifetime, we probably invested about $15,000 in her medical care.

So we learned our lesson the hard way. However, that being said, we won't ever purchase a boxer from ANY breeder, reputable or otherwise, ever again. Since the day we brought her home in 2005 and our love of the breed was born, 18 other boxers have crossed our threshold, ALL rescued. Some were just passing through as fosters on their way to their forever homes. Others came to rest their weary bodies for just a brief moment until they crossed the bridge. A few have become permanent family members.

I've learned what constitutes a reputable breeder and what I should look for when I want another puppy, but I don't have it in my heart to support any breeder, period. There are too many unwanted boxers being euthanized every day. Instead, we'll contact the rescues we work with and tell them we're in the market for a puppy and to call us when one is available. Yes, chances are that dog came from a BYB, but adopting from a rescue opens up a spot for another dog sitting in a kill shelter somewhere.
 

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As for me, my most important criteria's include good health, great temperament and structure that is standard.

I trust responsible breeders because most likely they have ALREADY LOOKED INTO AND RESEARCHED all the criterias that I am looking for. And they have a history of litters to prove it. That is what I am paying for.
 

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So we learned our lesson the hard way. However, that being said, we won't ever purchase a boxer from ANY breeder, reputable or otherwise, ever again. Since the day we brought her home in 2005 and our love of the breed was born, 18 other boxers have crossed our threshold, ALL rescued. Some were just passing through as fosters on their way to their forever homes. Others came to rest their weary bodies for just a brief moment until they crossed the bridge. A few have become permanent family members.
TwoBoxerMom, that was really beautiful and made me tear up.

I just read through this old thread, and although sometimes I dream of that "perfect" puppy who comes from Breeder A...I think I will be rescuing my future boxers as well.

I am thankful everyday for what Bruce has brought to my life, and am so glad he never had to see a shelter before he was adopted.

This doesn't mean I don't believe there are truly well-meaning and responsible breeders out there who are trying to improve the breed, but just looking at the unwanted pet ads on Craiglist makes me sad. I'll never say never (I've had to eat my words too many times lol :lol: ) but right now my heart is set on rescue! :)
 

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This doesn't mean I don't believe there are truly well-meaning and responsible breeders out there who are trying to improve the breed, but just looking at the unwanted pet ads on Craiglist makes me sad. I'll never say never (I've had to eat my words too many times lol :lol: ) but right now my heart is set on rescue! :)
Irene, it's wonderful that you're considering rescue! So many people have the misconception that rescue dogs are somehow broken and less than perfect. A lot of times they're great dogs that just had a run of bad luck.

Max's owner had to go out of town for work and left Max with his sister. Her dog didn't get on with him, so Max got dumped. Max is a gentle soul but our fiercest protector, especially of our daughter.


Sam liked to jump fences and was bailed out of the shelter numerous times by his owner until one day his owner got tired of coming for him. Now Sam is our peacemaker and keeps things calm between the other dogs. I'd love to make him a therapy dog because of his calm nature.


Barkley had a really hard life in Kentucky. He was covered with awful scars and had ehrlichia when we brought him home, but he is my heart and soul. He always seems in awe that we picked him, and he sticks like glue to my side when I'm home.


Cinnamon was abandoned by her owner in Chicago at the age of 12. The shelter had written her off due to her age and the condition in which she was surrendered. Her owners stated she was blind. Here's her shelter intake picture:

She wasn't blind. Her eyes were just full of infection. That was a year ago, and now, she's a force to be reckoned with. Here Cinnamon is today:


None of our rescues have ever been "broken." Maybe tarnished or a little dinged up, but with a little TLC they've all turned out to be precious gems. :)
 
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