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Old 10-18-2015, 06:53 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default stubborn, need help.

Briefly, some quick background.

I adopted a two year old female boxer from the shelter a little over a month ago. As a new boxer owner, I was surprised how sensitive she can be but she definitely has a very stubborn streak. It only shows on our daily walks when she gets too excited around other dogs and jumps up and down basically goes nutz. I'm a big guy and have to be careful she doesn't hurt herself on the leash. It's not a pleasant ordeal but when I discipline or try to correct her behavior she is so sensitive that she actually pouts when we get home and I feel horrible about it. I'm caught between giving her the discipline she needs but not wanting to break the spirit that makes her such a wonderful dog.

When she acts up on the walks, I try stern verbal "no or bad dog" corrections. I will try to make her sit but she just tunes me out totally.

Am I supposed to ignore her after the walks when she acts badly? Like tonight, it seems like a silent stand off and I'm not sure if I reinforce her bad behavior by giving in and offering treats or affection or if it's better for her that I hold my ground so to speak?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 10-18-2015, 07:31 PM   #2 (permalink)
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OK relax! Your in good hands! You've taken the first important step in finding a solution! "Out think your dog!"

Your observations of her behaviour sound spot on and very familiar! A harsh verbal "NO" can crush them! And yanking and cranking on them is also a "No" go!

The other dogs thing see here:
https://www.boxerforums.com/training/...ther-dogs.html

If you don't make other dogs an attraction from day one it goes along way to solving issues, they never happen! And see the Slip Lead Leash thread. a Slip Lead Leash is what I use. By and large when used properly it is not a yank and tool. Slip Lead Leash thread is in the first link

A Prong collar maybe to much for this dog and you. With a Slip Lead Leash you can "guide the dog" into the behaviour you want! It's about persuasion not force.

The Sit thing should be easy, you apply light pressure upward on the leash and press on the butt and say Sit. A light touch is your friend.

And these first "Sit on the Dog:"
Wheres my sanity: Sit on the Dog, aka: The long down
Energy - it's all about confid-tude

And the "Place Command:"
The Magic Of Duration Work | The Good Dog Life Blog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq...olidK9Training

And some very good follow up on "The Place Command is here:
https://www.boxerforums.com/1822442-post25.html

Read that then click on the thread for the Q&A I found another clip on Place that is very good. The whole thread is worth reading.

So go over that info regroup and do what Cesar says. "Take a deep breath and relax!"

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Old 10-18-2015, 07:52 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thank you for the info Chip, great links. I just ordered a slip lead leash and will give that a try.

I stood my ground after our walk a few hours ago, did the no talk, no touch, no eye contact thing and she crept up into my lap so she is done pouting, so much personality, I can't help but to be amazed by this dog.
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Old 10-19-2015, 12:45 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchoffshore View Post
Thank you for the info Chip, great links. I just ordered a slip lead leash and will give that a try.

I stood my ground after our walk a few hours ago, did the no talk, no touch, no eye contact thing and she crept up into my lap so she is done pouting, so much personality, I can't help but to be amazed by this dog.
Oh I completely get it! Believe me, I spend a good share of my time standing up for Boxers on the GSD board! A lot of them are pretty impressed with our dogs.

I completely understand where your what your saying and yep you get these dogs! But ... I can service the greater good by not getting sucked in.

The no touch no talk no eye contact is good but you have to give her permission for up on your lap. If she initiates it's a No go for awhile. You'll know when it's time to lighten up!

But between the two of you it gave me an idea for another thread! A principle
of the "Koehler Method of Dog Training" and "The Place Command!" I have to think it through and I'll start a thread!

Well you seem to get the idea of the SLL pretty quickly?? Honestly I'm pretty surprised?? Very,very few trainers in these country teach it! It's not hard it just takes "time" and that is there most precious commodity!

On the other hand Sean O'Shea this guy:
Los Angeles Dog Trainer - Dog Aggression Training - Dog Behavior Modification

I listen to his Q&A Saturday all the time! Lots of great insight but I don't often reference his work. He uses to much stuff for my taste A Prong an E Collar and a Dominate Dog Collar??? But from him I know the Prong Collar can be problamtic for corrections with some Dogs and Owners ...but that's another story

So moving on this link is in there but to make sure you see it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...TrainingVideos

Right there is all you need to know! When I started to get it right a Flat leash and Collar is all I used and I got very good with it. The SLL is essentially the same principle in use as that video but a SLL can be more effective because you can position it high and snug to start and it will stay there a little longer.

A correction consist of a slight tug on the dog "sideways" not a yank just enough pressure to cause a slight change of position! Dogs don't really do sideways well.

Now if you want you can fashion a SLL out of your regular leash. You just put the clip through the handle to make a loop in the shape of the letter P. If your standing with the dog on your left. Put the P on the dog with the top of the handle loop on the side of the of the dog and there you go! Or put the P on the dog with the dog to your left.

The leash should be to the side of the Dogs neck.

But it's not a real SSL so you don't have the stop! So you have to kind of let the loop float to keep it in position at first! Normally you want about 18 inches or so of slack if you use a makeshift leash you want to keep the line snug but not tight at first. Let the dog get in position and only a slight tug towards you to keep him there if she pulls.

When I have done this I usually hold the dog a in a little tighter than normal usually only for a few yards. You can guide the dog they get the idea pretty quickly and they relax. The loop part will drop but it's not really an issue.

Watch the clips but the above is what is going on it's easier to see than to describe.

The secret is when "Pro's" walk dog's they "expect" them to behave. Walking a dog is only 10 percent technique and 90 percent expectations!

Watch an episode of Cesar 911 or The Dog Whisperer doesn't really matter and watch what he does when he takes the dogs from there struggling owners.
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Old 10-19-2015, 01:13 AM   #5 (permalink)
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All of your info is so good!! I am learning everyday!! The biggest thing I learned from a trainer we went to years ago was we are the pact leader and to teach our dogs to mind their own business!!
I am a big Cesar follower and he has shown me more than I can say!!
My hubby and I are retired with 2 male boxers7&9!! A 1 year old Shih Tzu mix and a new boxer boy in 5 weeks!! Still learning!!
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Old 10-19-2015, 01:32 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starrhae View Post
All of your info is so good!! I am learning everyday!! The biggest thing I learned from a trainer we went to years ago was we are the pact leader and to teach our dogs to mind their own business!!
I am a big Cesar follower and he has shown me more than I can say!!
My hubby and I are retired with 2 male boxers7&9!! A 1 year old Shih Tzu mix and a new boxer boy in 5 weeks!! Still learning!!
Welcome abaord and pictures of the tribe.

I rescued a Shih Tzu and his pals on one occasion, a Jack Russell and a Shiba Inu. The Shih Tzu was not crazy about Gunther because of Gunther's size he barked at Gunther to stay back which Gunther did.

So the four pack (Struddell and Gunther and the two strays) played in the yard and the Shih Tzu stayed with me in the back room. He tried to greet one of the Cats and the cat hissed at him, he looked at the cat turned around and came and laid down by my feet! Cool dog I was impressed!

We found there homes they were 2.5 miles away and headed for the Hwy when I rounded them up! We took them home. It was a good day and they were all three very nice dogs!

I guess to be fair ...my dogs had never played with other dogs in there lives they were taught to ignore other dogs and these came in and my guys were already in place.

I just took a breath and everybody off leash I had my guys stay in place and let them (the rescue round ups) in! No leashes was key and staying calm. No issues no problems and I did my work but I give credit to Cesar for me pulling that off without issue.
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Old 10-19-2015, 06:30 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Chip, thank you very much again for all the info and the links. You are correct on my inviting Bella up. Sometimes, those eyes just crush me! But yes I completely understand. I will continue to work with Bella and very much appreciate your insight. I also watch the dog whisperer and have learned some valuable information, especially on corrections and dog state of mind.
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Old 10-19-2015, 08:19 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchoffshore View Post
Chip, thank you very much again for all the info and the links. You are correct on my inviting Bella up. Sometimes, those eyes just crush me! But yes I completely understand. I will continue to work with Bella and very much appreciate your insight. I also watch the dog whisperer and have learned some valuable information, especially on corrections and dog state of mind.
Oh I completely understand! I had an instant flash back!

Pretty sure Struddell use to pull that on me all the time?? It was never a problem with her or Gunther! But I had no idea that habit could be a problem when I changed breeds! Unrecognized behaviors.

A lot of things I did with Boxers was useful in training my GSD but a lot of the more subtle habits I also allowed came back to, bite me in the butt big time when I switched breeds (GSD)!!!

I did a lot of things right and a few things wrong. My GSD is the dog that made me want to actually understand how I had got things right?? And my Boxers and Boxer/APBT mixes had given me the skills I needed to fix him!

Wobbler dog (GSD) so no yank and crank! Stewie my first Boxer/APBT mix taught me the power of "verbal commands! I was on a walk with him and exhausted, I told him "sit" maybe he did not hear me so I said "SIT!!!" Stewie looked at me like he was going to cry??? He was crushed! He looked at me with sad eyes and sat down! I was stunned, the term "folded like an umbrella" comes to mind! I never did that again! Doing that never phased my American Band Dawg, Boxer mixes and Boxers it would crush!

Struddell and all dogs afterward I handle have benefited from that lesson! Doesn't take force or harsh commands to train a dog but it does take an "understanding of what your doing!'

So if it's OK with you for your girl to climb in your lap no problem! Just a "Sit" wait or a "Down" first! And actually a "Down" is a big hammer for "Boxers" Struddell "showed" me that! She would blow her flues in protest over a "Down" command! It meant to her "play time is over??"

A behavior is allowed "only" with permission if you understand that ..."Boxers" are a piece of cake!

Enjoy your dog! I don't need to do the "NO' Dog Park thing do I??

You remind me very much of myself with my girl. And in ten years she was "never" attacked by another dog! It would be extremely bad news for a dog and there owner if that ever happened to my girl!! It was best for "everyone " involved that I had a "No Dog Park" and a "No" I thought my dog was friendly policy??" policy!

LE would be involved! Because I would get that dog off my girl (Struddell) and go after the owner!! Because as I am want to say:



Now I will add that ... sigh .. my GSD understands that sometimes ... "Daddy does not make good decisions!"

He saved me from making a mountain out of a molehill, when he "failed" to stay behind me when we were charged by a massive Mastiff'Pitt mix that came from out of an open garage!

I saw heard the dog and told Rocky (off leash behind me) to stay and stepped in front of him instantly! I was focused on the dog and was prepared to lay into him!!! Rocky failed to stay?? Instead he step forward and beside me and smiled in the dogs face???

My attention turned away from the charging dog and to "Rocky???" At that point I could see again (no more red mist) and I then saw the charging Mastiff/Mix sit down, smile back and wag his tail???

I mumbled to the guy "control your freaking dog!!" and stormed off!! It actually took me a week to realize what had happened?? Most likely (Rocky) had once again save "Daddy" from a trip to the ER for stitches!

Just my way of saying ... people that "Dog Park" there dogs are in fact putting there dogs in harms way of the clueless and inept! My dogs are "safe" and well trained! They are not the dogs by and large that you will find in a "Dog Park!"

But for those eager to see an out of control Pit in action ... a "Dog Park" is where you will find them!
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Old 01-04-2016, 11:11 AM   #9 (permalink)
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We had the same problem at first too! We're used to Pitts, and they can get stubborn occasionally, but apologize when corrected.
Wren is much different. We only used mild corrections at first, but my coworkers at the Doggy daycare told basically finally told me I was babying her, and seeing it from an outside perspective made me realize they were right. The main behavior I'm trying to stop there is fence jumping out of the play area, and I actually almost cried the first time I had to yell at her about it. She quickly learned cute looks and pouting weren't going to change things, and now she's finally mostly stopped fence jumping.
When your correcting her on the walk she ignores you, but waits to be upset till she gets home? Or when she finally listens to a correction she's upset about it for a long time?
What I do with Wren is correct while she's being bad, and get her to sit, and praise her for sitting, and keep praising her as long as she's good if we're walking or something.
Oh it's also important to be firm, strict, and even harsh voiced occasionally, but you don't want to come off as angry or frustrated ever if you can help it.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:56 PM   #10 (permalink)
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When I took a puppy class at PetSmart there was one thing they taught me that really helped my dog. When walking by another dog, take out a treat and hold it in front of them. Continue walking, holding the treat in front of them but not letting them have it until you are past the dog. My little Clover no longer gives a care about other dogs on walks. Unless they bark at her but then she merely gives them a glance and continues on ^_~
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