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Old 10-16-2019, 08:29 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I stopped watching Dog Impossible when he choked out a fearful and unsocialized I guess it was an Australian Shepherd and I stopped watching the most popular dog trainer when he threw down into submission a boxer that he punished for protecting itself from another aggressive dog. That was it for me, no more TV dog trainers! I think most of their antics are for ratings and am doubtful of the long term solutions as the people that own the dogs are the ones to blame they are the ones that should be muzzled and slammed to the ground in fear or kicked in the rear and SHHHHH.
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Old 10-16-2019, 05:40 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Sometimes a stranger will pet him and he will tolerate but not enjoy. I can tell from his hair standing up or his lips being tight that they better stop. If his eyes lock, then back off and don't look him in the eye.

Yet he will run to people / strangers for pets if he is in an off leash place.

He really has come very far. I have been taking it easy and just telling people who ask to pet him.." no, he is not that dog who likes everyone to pet him."

I mean, he doesn't have to accept people petting him on walks I suppose, but it would be nice ( I guess for me 🤔? And sometimes people pet without asking and I want him to be safe.
If a dog is in the "Public Space," it is "ASSUMED" that the dog is "Safe??" Cuz if he wasn't then why is there??

Some people will ask if they can pet??? And some people won't, and the Rude
Self Entitled ones, put your efforts at risk ... but that is just the way it is. And your job (which you seem to be doing quite well) is to make him feel comfortable and look to you for guidance??

They start to learn, that it's not there job to be "biting the crap out of people!" Teaching them that is the ultimate goal. It's the whole point of what you are doing.

I advocated and practiced a "Zero Bite Risk" policy . And at's it hearty was one simple principle. My dog can't bite people, if "I keep them out of his face??" And with Rocky's a few years ago, sigh ...

I can say that it worked! As he never bit a stranger is his life! All a dog "needs" in his life is to be taken care of and "You!"

Not much point in him getting attention from some "stranger" for a few seconds, that he will never see again??? Unless of course he bites them! And then you will see them again!

It's a pretty much "Bullet Proof Protocol." My goal was not to create a "people friendly" dog" in public, it was to create a people safe dog in public. And as I would have said on Germanshepardforum, "I don't need to see you or your dog to know it works, if followed as outlined."

Now that said, the part in Blue above. I don't really like that?? Unless you can recall him off leash, or Stay at a distance?? And Stay (first) and then Recall, is easier for the dog to process. But if your letting him approach strangers, you have no control of the situation.

And it might be his Boxer Instinct, causing him to do that?? Cuz as a general rule Boxers tend to like people, a lot!

But he could go bouncing over to a stranger stop and look for you?? And then "suddenly discover" some tool in his face??

It might be to soon to be allowing him to interact freely with strangers, just yet?? But I don't know??
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Old 10-16-2019, 09:32 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Last time we were in the big city, I actually crossed the street as Chance and I were going to meet up with a sketchy guy with a tough like looking dog with a spike collar. Well, this guy actually crossed the street coming after me yelling " miss ? Hey miss! " So he caught up to me and said that my dog was very good looking and asked if he was fixed. He wanted my dog to stud his dog who was in heat. Well, she snared and lunged at Chance anyway so ummm.. But chance is fixed so we got away from there. Freaky people.

So it has been half an hour now for " sitting on the dog" He did really well I think. I did have him exercised well before hand tho. So I do this twice a day for how long? There is no special release right? I'm just unleashing him and want to show affection now.
Yeah well crap like that does happen! Obviously "NOT" a responsible "Breeder!"

But yeah, when people track you across the street it does kinda freak you out!! However sometimes .. it works out great! I am not a Pro, just another member of JQP, with a problem dog (Human Aggression) and my goal was "not to make dog's problem, someone else's problem, that was it.

After getting over the not a (People) luving, Boxer shock and confusion??? We went to work. SO I turned off course to the internet! ANd I found Leerburgh and this.:Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog

Who Pet's and really it's what I had be doing anyway. Except instead of always saying yes when asked, what if I said "NO" and explain?? And the only "spin" I put on it, was (at first) telling Rocky to Stay, and I stepped in front of him. So you know they could not get to him anyway without getting past me first.

And that is what we did. We ignored both dog's and people. And I never allowed another dog to get close enough to him to strike. If forced to pass another dog walker, I would go between the other dog and Rocky. But small town so did need to do that much if ever??

So most often we just stepped aside and allowed them to pass. But lot's of people stopping us and asking questions about him was the norm. And it was always the same routine. Stop/Stay and I step in front of him. I did not care, if he sat or lay down or what he looked at. As long as he was calm and quiet, it was all good! After awhile I longer need to say "Stay." If I stopped to talk he knew his place, no input on part required cuz Dad had his back.

Was this achieving what I wanted, I had no idea?? And in the beginning, Rocky was still wearing a muzzle in public the (Blk Mesh) type, because all this was new to me (Don't Pet) and I was not really sure how he would react around strangers???

But after doing this, time after time for months. He came to learn the routine and I better understood, what he looked like when he was calm. Which is to say ... "Nothing to see here Dad." So my job was done?? Or you know was it??

Here is where "not being a Pro" was an issue?? I did not know what I was looking for nor, did I have a "safe way to prove," .. "Proof of Concept??"

So at this point me being me, was kinda in Rocky's way?? If he never got a pet from a friendly stranger in his life ... I was good with that! Cuz you know ... "I roll hard" as it were.

But ... back on point and being tracked by a "Stranger!" So one day, Rocky and are doing are daily walk bit. And Rocky is slightly behind on leash and spot someone on the sidewalk ahead and it looks like, he's coming to meet us??? OK no problem, we'll cross the street so we do.

And then much to my "horror" he crosses the street to meet us!??? Now Rocky had seen me meet and greet "Strangers" many times. But most cases the neighbors were behind there fence anyway, so he could not have gotten to them even if he tried! And if they were not, we stopped about 5 feet away and I stepped in front of Rocky and those very few times were forced upon me! As I would sometimes take him to the "Quickie Mart" say "Stay" and dash inside! So not something, I regularly did!!


But this guy ... was here and exposed! And I could tell that a meet and greet was immanent!! And frankly, I was terrified!! I mean really who thinks that they can walk there in public and never expect, to be asked by someone to "pet" there dog??

But everything I had done was "perfected" in little town America "Dayton NV," not the big City!! And that sudden realization came crashing in on me as "we" approached the stranger!! I was "freaking out" but you know, if I was not calm ... I had to fake it!

So we approached each other and at five feet, I stopped and he stopped and we spoke. I do not who this guy was?? But I do old him a big, "Thank You!"

He was first a GSD guy, and he said he had seen us many times, and I do not know what he saw?? But he saw "something different with us and wanted to know what the deal was?? Well ... this was different?? Cuz in many incidental "stranger" encounters ... "No one had every asked, "what are you doing with your dog??"

Well hmm OK ... no one had every asked! So I explained the entire, "My Blood Ran Cold, he does not like strangers situation" blah,blah,blah. And with that, I expected him to say "OK, well have a nice day" and move on. But he did not!!??

I had just said he bites, before to a few others and they had all said "OK, good luck with your dog" and moved on. But this guy asked more detailed questions and did not do that?? Instead he looked at me and then looked at Rocky and said " OK well has it worked??"

OK ... no one had every asked me that before??? I was stunned! I turned to look at "Rocky" and I saw the "this old bit, bored with it all," look that I had seen many times before!" And with that, I stepped aside and allowed the guy to pet him! And Rocky accepted the contact without issue!!

He petted Rocky on the head and said "Nice dog you have there." And with that I knew that I had "accomplished my goal!" I was still extremely discerning but I did allow him more freedom to meet strangers!

And while sadly, I do not know who that guy was?? I do owe him a very big thank you! Cuz were it not for him, I would have "Never" let Rocky interact freely with anyone!!

But retro spec and based on another experience, a while later, I suspect that guy was more than just a GSD Fan?? I suspect he was not only EX Military but a K9 trainer??

And I base that "assumption" on another encounter with a "Military Vet" and Rocky's behavior. Rocky was pretty much extremely, "aloof" with most strangers. But ex military ... he luv'd those guys?? He would greet them like they were long lost friends!!??

And greeting people like that was something he reserved to very few! OK, I can count four people! Me, my wife, my best friend and apparently after years of random visit my Daughter In Law!

She was a rare drop in from Ca. And I would always say "NO PET" when she dropped in. But on one occasion, I was tired and took a nap, and left no pet instructions with Marilyn! When I got up I looked for Rocky and I did not see him in the house??

I went outside and first I saw Sheri, and by her side stood Rocky, smiling away!! I was stunned but all was good.

Aw, well long way of saying, that while being tracked with your dog is kinda "creepy" sometimes it does work out!
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Old 10-17-2019, 01:04 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I stopped watching Dog Impossible when he choked out a fearful and unsocialized I guess it was an Australian Shepherd and I stopped watching the most popular dog trainer when he threw down into submission a boxer that he punished for protecting itself from another aggressive dog. That was it for me, no more TV dog trainers! I think most of their antics are for ratings and am doubtful of the long term solutions as the people that own the dogs are the ones to blame they are the ones that should be muzzled and slammed to the ground in fear or kicked in the rear and SHHHHH.
Well .. I don't know what you saw?? But off the top of my head yeah kicking a dog and or slamming a dog to the ground is a bit much!

And of course I don't know the Boxer "Abuse" circumstances?? But yeah it strikes me as unfair?? And as for "choking out" ie "Hanging The Dog" that is an "Extreme Form Of Correction" usually reserved for the worst of the worst!!

And I would dare say on here?? Few would have any idea what an "Up Leash Dog Is??" But hey I could be wrong??

And you should not have led in with an "Aussie??" Well for me anyway. A Herder Dog! And personally, I have no use for the lot of them!

I don't know the circumstance?? But those dogs are bad ass's, they were bred to herd cattle! If you weight less than a cow? You had best earn there "Respect" or you know "Good Luck" with that.

The Herder Dogs, I knew were, let's see ... people biting, car chasing, wild horse chasing, disobedient tools! I had no use for the lot of them! Until due to circumstances ... I had one! And no I did not have to "hang her" just to be clear!

But if you do actually put time and effort into training one?? They are freaking awesome!!! We had one, my neighbors dog! They were to say the least very bad dog owners!! And we had called the cops on them for years over that dogs behavior ... to no avail! She would bark and howl for ... hours all night long day in and day out non stop! And then she started breaking into our yard??? And I would return her back to the owner!

And finally the neighbor had had enough! And the last time, I returned her, he said "I'm done with her, off to the pound she goes!!"

Well that dog had seriously pissed me off for two years?? But I said ... aww don't do that, I'll take her!

And as I said I had no use for "herder Dog's" as a group (and sigh yes I know ... GSD's but whatever. ) So we take her, I was working rescue and the plan was a week or two and I'll pass her on. Time went by and I did nothing with her. But she got along fine with Struddell and Gunther so you know whatever.

But after a month she was still her??? And then I was like well, if she is still here, then perhaps I need to start working with her?? And I did (and no I did not ever need to "Hang Her"again, just to be clear) but I started to work with her and I discovered much to my surprise?? These dog's are freaking brilliant!!!

They just require more work then the average owner is willing to put in!! But I had put her up as being available for adoption! And did not realize that in the ensuring three months time Marilyn and I would fall in Luv with her??

She did first (fall in love with her) but never spoke of keeping her to me (cuz you know I can be an enlist tool.) And when I finally said well maybe?? The Phone Rang!!! And someone was interested!! Uh Oh ... I had made a commitment, and now we were stuck! But you know well maybe they would not like her?? Well that did not happen as they luv'd her! A Mom and a dog for Christmas for her 13 year old.

And there was just one test left. Could he walk her himself?? And when she asked that ... my heart sank! Cuz I knew "we" were toast!! If there was one thing I knew how to do well, it was train a dog to walk well on a loose leash!

So I gave brief instructions and handed the leash off. And boy and dog walked up and down the block like they had done it for years! My heart sank as they came back without issue!

So we said bye and she said she will contact my rescue group. Well I still wanted to keep her but Marilyn said I had made a commitment and while we still had fist rights as a foster ... Marilyn asked if I really wanted to break a little boy's heart at Christmas?? And my answer was of course "No." So a few day's later we gave her up. I had done what I'd said ... found her a home. But that was a very sad Christmas for us! We cried together and then we moved on!

Rocky was up next and he was "almost gone!" But the would be adopters flaked out! And that was it! I called my group and told them ... Rocky is no longer available!! Being a "Foster" can be a very hard, heart breaking job, if you are good at it!

Well OK a rather wild tangent there?? But you did throw in "Aussie, so yeah ..."

But back on point and I do not know the circumstances with that dog admittedly. But if the dog was bad enough that the trainer felt the need to "choke the dog out??" It seems to me, that a " Victoria Stilwell," type trainer, ie "positive only" approach would have resulted in the dog being "PTS!"

IE ... your dog is "unfix-able," so you know, it's best to free him from his demons" as it were. If a case is that severe, those are the options without the right trainer.

And a "PO" trainer, cannot help an owner with such a dog. It's a waste of both time and money. On here ... Human Aggression, is fairly rare?? Maybe one or four a year?? And I have been here awhile and that is all I've seen??

On the Germanshepardforum ... I was pretty much always in the "Dog Aggression Forum" and take note that we don't have one here (Aggression only forum).

And there "issues rolled in" every freaking day!!! And the standard answer there for owners ... desperate for help?? Was "always" find a trainer!

And that tended to tick me off!! Oh well it was an epic run! But I was to much for one "pro!" So I got "banned"! Over an unrelated topic I might add (well not advise related anyway.)

But as much as I do understand the need to "Hang a Dog." As you can see, it's not what I advocate "even with H/A!" For those that actually chose to follow my advise. Ironically enough they would see ... it is "PO!"
It was actually years before I realized that!

Oh well and since I am going on ... anyway. How effective is, hmm ... "The Rocky Protocol??" Well "we" scored a "Save" for a high dollar Wl GSD Female, that was uh "overly" Protective of her owner!"

That owner had a lot of serious "people issues" with her new GSD. Even the Breeder was online to try and help the dog and owner! I got an E-Mail early that morning, from one of my friend's and a "Pro." MAWL(Mine Are Working Line) LE Pro trainer and she was asking me to see if I could help on a thread she linked??

And the title was "My Dog Scheduled to be PTS ... "TODAY at 4:30!" Well you know this certainly seemed like a waste of my time, as the decisions was already made. But you know whatever so I waded in.

And what I said is basically already here, same old same old. But she did have to add the Crate and the No free roaming bit! And time goes by and we hear nothing?? And then one day she post again, with a photo that shows all of her dogs, indoors in "Place." And I was stunned as not only did she have a tiny little something or another dog in "Place" in the photo, but not one but "TWO" Cane Corso's??? But her first WL GSD ... was giving her grief!

Bully's first and GSD's second does tend to lead to surprises it would seem! So you know I was not alone with my issues with my firsat GSD it would seem.

Oh well despite my best intentions to keep it short ... I've failed yet again?? But suffice to say "hanging a dog" is a legitimate, hard core severe "Correction" and only reserved for the "Worst of the Worst cases! As in a "Hard Dog" or an "Up leash Dog!" And I have never dealt with either of those!

But they are out there and some of them are in GSD's owner's homes! By contrast on here even with the few H/A cases that do show up. I can't recall a single one where an owner said "My Dog, comes "Up Leash at me!??"

But hey I did not see the shows you did ... so there is that.
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Old 10-17-2019, 08:27 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Yeah the SHHH trainer was "helping" a supposed aggressive female boxer and of course he took it to his camp where he puts her directly in with others he says aggressive dogs and this I think it was a husky (can't stand those dogs) and it snapped at the boxer and he jumped all over that dog for defending itself I wanted to go thru the tv screen no boxer I have ever known would stand still for that! And just saying all of my boxers did not like Huskies either whether that was just a thing or they got that from me I don't know. When I saw the other trainer with the aussie the dogs was a supposedly a fear biter it had a creepy look to it because of the blue eyes too but he had a muzzle on the dog and the dog was panicked to the point where it eventually fell out on the floor I just remember "way to confirm not to trust people?" I didn't watch any further, anyone can take a dog out of its home environment and work miracles because all the things the dog is used to are different I would guess when they are returned to the owners the same thing will go on again. I think pretty consistently people get dogs they have NO idea how to handle don't know the breeds traits faults and challenges and they get them because they are cute or they saw one in a movie or they think a dog makes them look macho or whatever and then they usually make no attempt to get help with training or anything this is usually a recipe for disaster. I hate seeing dogs messed up by peoples ignorance I think you should prove you deserve a dog the dog shouldn't have to prove its loyalty to idiots. I think Chip its fantastic you rescued that poor backyard dog I live in a neighborhood where that is a common thing I hear barking and howling all night. I had some neighbors once who had a pit bull and a beagle and at the time I had a very large American bred male boxer he was the indifferent one to other people but he was very territorial of our house and yard I had a terrible time letting my dog out in my own yard if the neighbors dogs were out from the fence fighting so I had to be careful of that one morning I went to let my dog out in my back yard I opened the back door and he usually would run out well there on my step stood the pit bull and the beagle it was a real OSM! I am so glad my dog didn't just run out that day that would have been a terrible fight I yelled at the neighbor then he went out and fixed the hole his dogs had dug and poured concrete in it too to fix it scared me really bad.
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Old 10-17-2019, 02:37 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Yeah the SHHH trainer was "helping" a supposed aggressive female boxer and of course he took it to his camp where he puts her directly in with others he says aggressive dogs and this I think it was a husky (can't stand those dogs) and it snapped at the boxer and he jumped all over that dog for defending itself I wanted to go thru the tv screen no boxer I have ever known would stand still for that! And just saying all of my boxers did not like Huskies either whether that was just a thing or they got that from me I don't know. When I saw the other trainer with the aussie the dogs was a supposedly a fear biter it had a creepy look to it because of the blue eyes too but he had a muzzle on the dog and the dog was panicked to the point where it eventually fell out on the floor I just remember "way to confirm not to trust people?"
Uh WOW!!! There is so much wrong with what he does it's hard to know where to start??? But for one, who pets an aggressive dog in with other aggressive dog's for rehabilitation??? What is it, exactly the dog is suppose to learn??? Who does that???

If your gonna actually work on rehabbing an "aggressive" dog, relatively quickly (weeks and not months) then you need a "pack" of calm balanced dogs to help the aggressive dog get over it.

And if your not a "Pro," then working on your dog's reactivity with distance time and patience, and staying out of other dog's, Strike Distance," works well also ... it just takes more "time."



And the Aussie, well that was just wrong also! Something more along these lines would have been more appropriate.

https://fearfuldogs.com/five-golden-...-nicole-wilde/

In my "Master Thread" on "Rocky" the original article is linked. I just focused it more on people and added "Step in front" and "Structure" in the home "also" (management.) But again takes more time.

But way back in the day when I started with Rocky, I did not send him away because I knew ""tools" like that were out there?? And I did not know how to sort them out (at the time.) So you know "screw it I'll figure it out myself.

And it works but not in a two to three week time frame?? If you need a quick turn around time (weeks not months) that is also a part of you are paying for, with a "Pro," but you need to chose your trainer wisely!!

And most of the time people struggling with issues?? Don't know how to do that ... either?? And then tools like those guy's make money damaging dogs!!

That's a part of what would ticked me off in the Germanshepardforum! When most of them saw "Aggression," "Find A Trainer" was the usual refrain.

more to come later.
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Old 10-17-2019, 09:41 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Sometimes I think people misuse the word aggression. A dog protecting its owner or home to me is not aggressive its protective. That's what dogs were bred for to protect their owners property or being or livestock. Aggressive to me means wants to randomly bite or kill humans or other animals to me there is a difference. I had a woman I knew ask me for some training advice on a shepherd mix puppy she adopted, she was ready to put the dog down for being aggressive I was like why would you think that's she said because the puppy was biting all the time! I told her that's what puppies do! And another woman who saw my boxers felt the need to tell me they had to put theirs to sleep because it was aggressive she told me that they kept the dog on a chain all the time and eventually her son became afraid of it so it had no contact with humans besides food and water that's it then she told me she wanted to get her son another boxer and I told her "lady don't get another boxer don't get any kind of dog if you are going to chain it and do to it what you did to the other dog" she got very angry and stomped away in a huff. Most really aggressive behavior I have seen has been in GSD I have known at least two of them now that would hunt and kill animals like other dogs and cats and anything else its pretty wild behavior and scary. I have seen a few pit bulls as well that were genuinely aggressive and I hear a lot of people say that its people who make them that way and to some extent that's true but I have seen puppies with no abuse whatsoever be extremely dog aggressive and it surprised me but it shouldn't have with all the backyard breeding going on who knows how many are inbreeding and what ever.
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Old 10-18-2019, 09:55 AM   #38 (permalink)
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backyard breeding going on

Yep spot on. In the past and thats 40 years ago I had many GSD's many working line. In fact the two I had the were american line had lousy personalities. The working line took longer to do obedience training with as they got bored more quickly but they all had very stable temperaments and once they hit 2 years old were really great dogs. I had one that anyone could come into my home and visit, he would give a sniff love to be petted and just go lie down, was fine on the street too. When they would go to the door he would stand in front of it then sit. I had to tell him it was ok and then he would move away and go back to lie down. In my car if someone approached me, he would bark and growl until I told him to sit back down it was ok. I really preferred the working line. Chip has had some bad experience with wl GSD's and has seen many bad ones. I think the line was ruined by byb over the years and that they are no longer the same dogs or perhaps people have changed too and think they can just lie around and not continue being trained.
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Old 10-18-2019, 05:03 PM   #39 (permalink)
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American Line GSD's??? Well, if you can't say nothing good, don't say nothing. But by contrast kinda, I will/can say American Line Boxer's turned out to be the right Dog for America!

And yes Aggression does get "misdiagnosed" all the time. But you have to "discount" the truly inept and incompetent owners. I mean puppies bite, it's kinda what they do ... until trained to do otherwise. The folks that don't understand that, would do all of us a favor by getting, Goldfish. So people that shouldn't have any dog at all is a whole nother subject.

And then are people that can and want to help there dog but they don't know what to do??? And trying to help them is "our" job.

I did not "reach out" many years ago when I first realized I had "serious" issues with Rocky (my first GSD.) If someone had told me to "Find a Trainer," it would have been "Game On!!!"

Screw it I'll solve it myself, I just had to figure out how?? And it was a long bumpy journey ... detailed in my "What would my dog do thread!" It was not an easy journey. But I learned a lot and despite, the turmoil and the uh stitches and permanently bent little finger. He was worth the effort and he did pay me back on one occasion for putting up with his crap! He turned out to be both my greatest challenge and my greatest success, WL GSD's, can be magnificent dogs!! .

But yeah ... I don't recommend them for most people! But hey I am also reluctant to recommend Boxers also! Cuz you know, they are not typically a law suit on four paws looking for a place to happen. They can be a pretty hair pulling experience for the unwary ... hmm that seems to be where I am with Bella as it happens.
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Rocky BLK Over Size Wl GSD 2007-2017
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